RuneScape Forum Archive | BTS 58 More Lodestones

Feb

2013

Poes Minoes

Posts: 1,168 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Too many dam free of charge lodestones.
Bring back the 30 minute timer as a minimum.
And also put some type of demand on a lodestone like a quest.
I have just about ALL the different teleport types at my disposal.
This includes modifing home teletabs and some 1 of a kind jewelry.
I have done all the quests to unlock ALL the various tele options and it took me a long time to do it.
Slayer points for the handy slayer ring - almost useless now thanks to 2 lodestones.
.
What's the next update - a rotten potato that tele's using coordinates.
.
Common Jagex stop destroying this great game.

25-Jun-2013 16:06:08

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.

Say there are 100 people invested in a company. said company introduces something that 90 of the 100 do not like, and the 90 show their concern for it. However, the remaining 10 buy into said introduction, and it increases their profit ten fold, out-buying the other 90 in the process. Now, who is in the majority- the 90 that do not like it, or the 10 that do?

If anyone has rose-tinted glasses, it's you. Company Execs are PAID to spin facts, statements, whathaveyou in a positive light in an attempt to please their shareholders/consumer base. Essentially, to try and maintain good PR/Public Image by speaking in half truths. any competent Business Administration major can tell you this.

continued

And if the 90 percent that do not like it prevails, and the change isn't made, and profit goes down enough that the company closes, what then?

Don't kid yourself, all companies, yes even companies that produce games, yes even Jagex, are in it for the profit. They may have secondary motivations in addition to that, but the primary motive is profit. And they either stay true to that motivation, or they don't survive in the capitalistic marketplace. Altruism and pleasing the vocal minority is all well and good, but it doesn't pay the bills (including payroll of employees who wouldn't understand "we didn't do this change that would have increased our profit and allowed us to afford to give you a raise because the vocal minority was against it."

Or let me put it another way. When I was a manager at a movie theater (yes I already had a degree b4 going back to school, in Business Administration and Management) when I was younger, even if we did have digital projection and *could* rewind the movie for people who arrived late and complained they missed the first 15 mins of the movie (and believe me, they did), I wouldn't have. Because that's pleasing a minority at the cost of aggravating the majority. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

25-Jun-2013 17:53:02

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
Please tell me how a company gets feedback from people that never talk, the supposed "majority". I really want to know this one. Money just tells you financial success. it does not tell you about internal matters. Also tell me how a company patches a bug that they weren't aware about without spending hundreds of thousands easily on a bug testing team. Tell me this one.

If a company gets votes against a certain feature in a game from 25% of their player base, why on earth would they not implement that feature? By the same token, if 25% of players complain about a feature, but they see from their server statistics that the rest of the player base is using it, why on earth would they take it away?

Or to put it another way, if a company releases a software program, and they get complaints about a feature in it (that does not affect the software stability at all) from 100 people, but they sell 10,000 copies, do you really think they're going to change that feature? Really?

(Cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

25-Jun-2013 18:02:45

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
"Also tell me how a company patches a bug that they weren't aware about without spending hundreds of thousands easily on a bug testing team. Tell me this one."

"Please, don't make me laugh too hard. where do you want me to start as to just how discredible the survey was? The Selection Bias? Voluntary Response Bias? Non-Response Bias? Analytical Bias? please tell me which one and I'll explain it to you.

In the wildy/FT vote, anyone could vote. Granted, alts could vote, but alts COULD have also been counted in the EoC survey, so there's no relevant difference there. Essentially, there was no Selection Bias. Now, Non-Response Bias can only be determined from official records from that time as to total accounts, but the Voluntary Response stands, as it's hard to maintain a poll like that since most involved had strong opinions on it. For Analytical Bias, even with skewed results, it's hard to circumvent the fact that 91% of votes were for Free Trade/Wilderness' return.&amp"

Bugs and features are two different things. Yes, companies get feedback about bugs and fixes them based on that feedback. That's because they are BUGS and affect the usability of the software for all. (Generally, in rare cases it might be specific-account based, but that's rare.) This doesn't have anything to do with feedback about a feature that the vocal minority doesn't like.

Perhaps you missed this part: "While that doesn't make it 100% indicative of the viewpoint of the whole of RS players, it is more so than the FT/wildy vote."

Or perhaps you missed the part where a p/w wasn't required to vote in the FT/wildy vote, so people could cull account names from high scores and vote multiple times under other people's usernames. Whereas, as memory serves, a p/w was required to vote. Lending it more legitimacy than the FT/wildy vote. (Not to mention single issue vs. double issue.) (cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

25-Jun-2013 18:09:52 - Last edited on 25-Jun-2013 18:34:22 by Matchgirl42

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
In the wildy/FT vote, anyone could vote. Granted, alts could vote, but alts COULD have also been counted in the EoC survey, so there's no relevant difference there. Essentially, there was no Selection Bias. Now, Non-Response Bias can only be determined from official records from that time as to total accounts, but the Voluntary Response stands, as it's hard to maintain a poll like that since most involved had strong opinions on it. For Analytical Bias, even with skewed results, it's hard to circumvent the fact that 91% of votes were for Free Trade/Wilderness' return.

Both surveys had HUGE self-selection bias/selection bias. And so does the vocal minority. Since you don't seem to know what that means, I'll tell you, quoted directly from my statistics textbook: "Self-selection bias is a problem that very often results when survey respondents are allowed to decide entirely for themselves whether or not they want to participate in a survey. To the extent that respondents' propensity for participating in the study is correlated with the substantive topic the researchers are trying to study, there will be self-selection bias in the resulting data. In most instances, self-selection will lead to biased data, as the respondents who choose to participate will not well represent the entire target population."

And that is why neither survey, NOR the vocal minority, can be said to represent the entire player base. Even with, as I noted above, the EoC survey being more legitimate than the FT/Wildy survey. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

25-Jun-2013 18:17:40

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
"'and differing opinions just reinforces the idea that the vocal minority is representative of the majority' Uh, no. You really have no idea what vocal minority even means, do you? Any knowledgeable statistician would laugh their socks off at the idea of a vocal minority (read: self-selected sample) being representative of the majority."

And any competent economist would tell you that microeconomics are linked to the health of macroeconomics. your fallacious arguments amuse me.

It's the same case for communities- the various microcommunities (vocal minorities) and their opinions often determine (the link) the health of the macrocommunity (the big picture).

So.....yea- wanna contest that?

And?

What is this an argument for? Yes, I knew this. No, it does not invalidate my argument that the vocal minority does not represent the majority.

Yes, microeconomics affect macroeconomics, in that macroeconomics is the sum of the activities in the microeconomics. However, if 25% or less of the macro economy goes one way, and 75% or more of the macro economy goes the other way, guess which way the macro economy goes?

In general, the biggest (and often only) effect a vocal minority has on the community as a whole is a negative one. As others have noted, would you want to join a community where the people that did speak up in the forums was negative all the time? THAT is what's going to ruin runescape and drive new players away, not updates that the majority of players seem to have no issue with. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

25-Jun-2013 18:26:05

Sage Freke

Posts: 34 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

.

25-Jun-2013 18:28:51 - Last edited on 20-Aug-2013 06:21:12 by Sage Freke

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Matchgirl42 post:

"And if the 90 percent that do not like it prevails, and the change isn't made, and profit goes down enough that the company closes, what then?"

Notice how my question was purposely ambiguous, ever hear of the elenchus method? yea- did that with that question. Either way I would tell you you're wrong. But, you said the 90 have the majority. good. we're on the same page there. However, we're not on the same page with situation. Now, let's say the 10 get their way, the 90 LEAVE, and after a given timeframe the 10 stop buying into the company's introductions. Where do they get their profit then? they lost 90% of their base income with their decision to implement the introduction. What do you do then? the 10 stopped buying into the introductions, so tell me- what CAN you do? negative word of mouth would have already gotten around about your company saying you don't care about the customers. Now you have to try either Damage Control, or find a way to get even a fraction of your base income back, because you and I BOTH know that some, if any at all, of those 90 will not return.

This so called "vocal minority" very much had power here, which actually was positive in terms of profit at first, but negative over time in terms of Public Image, which IS the driving factor in making profit. This is why I say you CANNOT discredit the "vocal minority"

Another example of where a "vocal minority" has power: You're a student in a grade school classroom of 20, and you all are doing your work, socializing. However, there are 2 students who decide it will be funny to shout their conversation, disturbing the classroom setting. Now, the teacher decides to separate all the students, make them face the wall, and do all their work in silence. Now, in this situation, did the "vocal minority" have power? Common sense will tell you the right answer.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 02:57:36

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Don't kid yourself, all companies, yes even companies that produce games, yes even Jagex, are in it for the profit"

Yes, they are, but that does not imply disregarding your playerbase for profit. It all goes back to PR/Public Image.

"They may have secondary motivations in addition to that, but the primary motive is profit"

Which is why I tell people to take what a Company Exec says at face value, if it's to be taken seriously at all. They speak in half-truths and slight hyperbole, generally speaking. As I keep on saying, it's all a PR stunt.

"And they either stay true to that motivation, or they don't survive in the capitalistic marketplace"

As I said, sure- primary motive is to make profit, otherwise what good is a business? But, you also have to carefully balance that with not ticking off too much of your base, if you had to tick them off at all (which I wouldn't understand because that's foolish), because that stews negative word of mouth. If that spreads, it can get to be VERY damaging to your public image. You not only have a lot of explaining to do, but you also have to work big time to minimize the damage being done. It's a double-edged sword. This is why I say that even though profit is the primary motive, keeping the base happy is a very close second, if not a tie.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 03:29:47

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Or let me put it another way. When I was a manager at a movie theater..."

Please, don't get started with anecdotes like that

*rolls eyes*

. There's no way to prove over the internet that you did such a job, or have such qualifications. I'm not saying you're lying, but I'm saying that since you're not able to readily prove it without breaking rules, you really can't reliably mention it. Also, I could say I weigh 400 pounds, all muscle. Doesn't mean it's true/false, but since I have no reliable proof, that leaves doubt to the credibility of my statement.

"If a company gets votes against a certain feature in a game from 25% of their player base, why on earth would they not implement that feature?"

That, my friend, is very open to Begging the Question, I'll explain why:

**A**: How many options total were there?

B: How many accounts total constitute the playerbase?

C: How many accounts of that playerbase participated?

***D***: What was the nature of the options given? Was it like Question 6 in the EoC Survey where 4 of the 6 questions had a positive connotation to it, or was it simply a Yes/No/Unsure, or something of that nature?

Asterisks= Very important.

Questions can continue, but I'm stopping it at those 4.

Please, stop with the fallacious thinking. it's getting tiring to point out your argumentative flaws.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 04:01:57

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BTS 58 More Lodestones