RuneScape Forum Archive | BTS 58 More Lodestones

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"By the same token, if 25% of players complain about a feature, but they see from their server statistics that the rest of the player base is using it, why on earth would they take it away?"

Ahh, SoF logic....I see. Analytical Bias at its finest. Using something does not imply liking it. For argument's sake, just assume the possibility: Let's say you want to use a microwave to cook your food and hate using an oven. However, the only way you could cook your food was via the oven, along with everyone else in that situation, forced upon you by an outside entity. Now, there is a tracker on the oven that records how many people use the oven. Since all the people have to use the oven, that means 100% of people use the oven. Does that mean everyone loves the oven? Common sense would tell you no. Why? Because it's the only option available. If there were other options, I am sure not 100% would be using the oven.

"Or to put it another way, if a company releases a software program, and they get complaints about a feature in it (that does not affect the software stability at all) from 100 people, but they sell 10,000 copies, do you really think they're going to change that feature? Really?"

Refer to above comment, except this time, I will be replacing "Use" with "Buy".

Let's say you want to buy a microwave to cook your food and hate ovens. However, you can only buy an oven to cook your food, along with everyone else in that situation, forced upon you by an outside entity. Now, there is a tracker that records how many people buy ovens. Since all the people buy ovens, that means 100% of people buy ovens. Does that mean everyone loves the oven? Common sense would tell you no. Why? Because it's the only option available. If there were other options, I am sure not 100% would be buying ovens.

Continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 04:21:00

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Bugs and features are two different things. Yes, companies get feedback about bugs and fixes them based on that feedback. That's because they are BUGS and affect the usability of the software for all."

Where do you think they get the feedback from? The vocal minority. Thank you for proving my point there.

"Perhaps you missed this part: "While that doesn't make it 100% indicative of the viewpoint of the whole of RS players, it is more so than the FT/wildy vote."

Or perhaps you missed the part where a p/w wasn't required to vote in the FT/wildy vote, so people could cull account names from high scores and vote multiple times under other people's usernames. Whereas, as memory serves, a p/w was required to vote. Lending it more legitimacy than the FT/wildy vote. (Not to mention single issue vs. double issue)"

I think you forgot the lecture on Biases. Not requiring a p/w closes the door to Selection Bias, but opens the door to Response Bias, as people with strong opinions will most likely participate.

With the EoC survey, not only were you vulnerable to Response Biases, but you're also open to Selection Bias thrice. Once by requiring a p/w (good thing), twice by requiring you to be in the EoC Beta (Bad, because it's more likely people who like the EoC will vote), and thrice by requiring you complete the combat tutorial (Bad because again, people who like the EoC will more than likely do the tutorial and you were give an EXP incentive to complete it).

Plus, the FT/Wildy was a VOTE, while the EoC stuff was a SURVEY. It's hard to commit Analytical Bias with a vote. with a survey, Analytical Bias is commonplace.

Plus, as I said before, Alts could have been/were used to inflate the vote either way in both situations, making your point about the legitimacy moot.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 04:48:51

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Both surveys had HUGE self-selection bias/selection bias"

I think you forget, one was a vote, the other was a survey. There is a difference between the two.

Also, Self-Selection Bias is unavoidable with any vote/survey. How else are you going to get data? Force people against their will to take it? That'd run into serious ethical issues. If Self-Selection Bias were to be considered for everything in this world, the world would be thrown into chaos, because there'd be no establishment. Selection Bias by the administrators of such practices, Response Biases, and Analytical Bias are all considered more important than Self-Selection.

Why? Because Self-Selection follows to Voluntary Response Bias, or in other words, people with strong opinions will participate, meaning it can be coincidence, like both the vote and the survey, and can be re-tested with a randomly selected group.

Selection Bias done by the administrators EXCLUDES x and y sample groups, meaning you're not getting the whole representation that is NOT coincidence that the data is skewed one way, like the EoC survey.

Analytical Bias "spins" the data one way or the other, which is also important in determining the credibility. if say person X does a survey on Basketball, and gets 26% of people liking Basketball over other spots, while 24% are not sure if they like Basketball the most, amongst other irrelevant options to this case, but Person X says 50% like Basketball the most. Does that person have any standing in saying that? Common sense would tell you no. Why? Because that 24% may be split amongst other sports being the best.

"And that is why neither survey, NOR the vocal minority, can be said to represent the entire player base. Even with, as I noted above, the EoC survey being more legitimate than the FT/Wildy survey"

I already stated your legitimacy point is moot in another post. Look if you don't know what I mean.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 05:22:47

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"What is this an argument for? Yes, I knew this. No, it does not invalidate my argument that the vocal minority does not represent the majority."

Actually, it does- the various vocal minorities make up the majority, so they DO represent the majority when melded together, like in a Forum situation.

"Yes, microeconomics affect macroeconomics, in that macroeconomics is the sum of the activities in the microeconomics"

Yes. For instance, let's say there is an update where combat, referencing PvP, is severely mitigated, if not outright removed. That causes that microcommunity (vocal minority) to shrink, if not dissipate completely. That affects every other microcommunity in the game.

Finished products by skillers, like potions, food, etc., and weapons/armors collected by PvM'ers will literally flood the market without any way of sinking it, causing prices to drop drastically, compromising both microcommunities in one go, which in turn makes them both less motivated to do what they do if they're ultimately breaking even/losing on money, in essence hurting the macrocommunity, which again is why I say the vocal minority, as a whole, represents the majority. If this basic concept cannot be understood, then MMOs are not for you.

"In general, the biggest (and often only) effect a vocal minority has on the community as a whole is a negative one"

It's irrelevant if the effect is positive or negative. an effect is still an effect. it affects something, meaning it has influence, influence ultimately being power. so thank you again for proving me right.

"would you want to join a community where the people that did speak up in the forums was negative all the time?"

I wouldn't want to be in a community where I feel vocal opinions are censored, stifled, whathaveyou by management constantly, like how you attempt it with disregarding the "vocal minority". No competent company would outright do that without serious consequences.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 06:03:27

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Because, if they outright said that in say a press conference, that the opinions of the "vocal minority" does not matter, then that sends impressions that they don't listen to their consumers or accept feedback, leaving, as I keep on saying, a BAD Public Image and a lot of Damage Control would have to be done. They usually say it by saying something along the lines of "we really want to see if these comments are what the majority thinks, or if it's just a vocal minority", if their word had any worth at all.

Now, to use a quote by Gerhard himself:

"We want to find out whether the passionate voices we hear on this topic are truly representative of the entire community or just a vocal minority."

If you read carefully, he does not outright say the Forumers are a vocal minority. He said he wants to see IF those Forumers represent the majority or are just saying it for the hell of it.

So far, the Forumers in RS have been representative of the will of the majority.

Following your logic, if the Forumers were truly predetermined a "vocal minority":

No Warbands nerf would have occured.

the PvP/Trade Removal (regardless of controversy) would still be around.

There'd be no 07 servers.

Hell, there would be no player-inspired updates. Period.

Ultimately, it's at best asinine to say the "vocal minority" holds no merit, assuming there even is one. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

26-Jun-2013 06:17:41

Ashley Demon

Posts: 6 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I don't have a problem with the lodestones. I always hated waiting 30 minutes between times teleporting to one place, Lumbridge. This update, as well as the initial adding of the lodestones were not bad. The only thing I disagree with, is that adding a lodestone to Karamja completely ruins the point of the 15 coin cost to travel there. It isn't much, but working to get Karamja gloves is useless now, and being in a member area, its yet another thing unfair to F2P. Love the rest of the lodestones!

P.S. Quite a long speech before me. O_o

26-Jun-2013 23:29:51 - Last edited on 26-Jun-2013 23:32:28 by Ashley Demon

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@D4 BE45T
You mean you employ troll tactics in your responses? Naw. I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you. *rolls eyes* Actually, what's truly shocking is you not realizing I was turning said troll methods right back around on you. And you walked into it brilliantly and reinforced my position for me. Well done! *applauds*

(i.e., the 10%, the vocal minority, gets their way and drives off 90% of the customer base. Which is WHY companies CAN and many times SHOULD disregard the vocal minority.)

And still denying anything and anyone that undermines your opinions, because since they disagree with you they *must* be wrong! And no, I'm not going to be lured into breaking forum rules because you insinuated that since I can't prove it I can't claim it. *rolls eyes* Sloppy, my friend, sloppy.

2 disruptive students - reinforces what I said that the only effect the vocal minority has is a negative one. Power, sure - but only destructive power. Not positive in the slightest.

Disregarding your playerbase for profit DOES come in to play when there is a vocal minority. Because, again, kowtowing to the vocal minority can lead to aggravating the majority in favor of the minority, and no capitalistic company who is or wants to be successful would do so. Keeping the player base happy involves keeping the MAJORITY happy. Again, not kowtowing to the vocal minority.

And do you not understand the simple statement "25% of their playerbase?" What part confuses you? Do you not understand percentages? Come now.

"Using something does not imply liking it." And again I point you back to my original point - companies are concerned about PROFIT. Using something does not necessarily imply liking it, but neither does it necessarily imply NOT liking it and using it for another reason (such as competing or convenience). The company is going to look at use/purchase figures, because that is a hard fact vs. the nebulousness of "liking" and "not liking." (cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

26-Jun-2013 23:39:05

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@D4 BE45T
(cont)

And the feedback for bugs doesn't prove your point at all. *rolls eyes again* Two completely different motivations. For the most part - and this isn't just me saying this, do a simple web search and you'll see this is a widely held opinion - the vocal minority is viewed as an overwhelmingly negative, destructive-to-the-community presence. Why, you just have to look at the way most of the vocal minority behaves on the RS forums. Negative complaints after negative complaints, raging, very few constructive complaints among them. Whereas with bug feedback, it is generally motivated by wanting to improve the game - not tear it down and destroy it.

"Not requiring a p/w closes the door to Selection Bias." "Plus, the FT/Wildy was a VOTE, while the EoC stuff was a SURVEY." "Also, Self-Selection Bias is unavoidable with any vote/survey."
*laughs uproariously* Oh, my friend. Really? Really? Do you even realize how silly you sound here? Did you not even read my explanation of self-selection bias? Did you not look it up for yourself? Did you not know that in statistical analysis, a survey can consist of a single yes/no question, and that a vote can be statistically analyzed, because technically it is a survey? Were you not aware that a whole school of thought has been dedicated to the design of statistical surveys to preclude selection bias as much as possible, and mitigate (as much as possible) its effects when it can't be precluded? And that the prevailing opinion in statistics is to give very little weight (if any at all) to surveys with selection bias, which was my original point when I brought up the FT/Wildy vote, that you couldn't point to it and say it was a sign of vocal minority success? You obviously don't understand statistical methodology/analysis much at all.

Please, don't write any more about statistical methodology/biases until you do, because you're just making a fool of yourself while repeating key words and phrases. (cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

26-Jun-2013 23:56:29

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
For instance, let's say there is an update where combat, referencing PvP, is severely mitigated, if not outright removed. That causes that microcommunity (vocal minority) to shrink, if not dissipate completely. That affects every other microcommunity in the game.

Finished products by skillers, like potions, food, etc., and weapons/armors collected by PvM'ers will literally flood the market without any way of sinking it, causing prices to drop drastically, compromising both microcommunities in one go, which in turn makes them both less motivated to do what they do if they're ultimately breaking even/losing on money, in essence hurting the macrocommunity, which again is why I say the vocal minority, as a whole, represents the majority. If this basic concept cannot be understood, then MMOs are not for you.

Newsflash: that already happened when PvP was removed from the wildy in the first place. The game is still around, and the macroeconomy didn't tank, because Jagex intervened to restore equilibrium to the macroeconomy. As they already do for multiple reasons, not just failure of microeconomies. You do understand how that works, right?

*Shakes head* And resorting to a variant of the "agree with me or GTFO" argument. Nice. A sure sign of someone losing a debate.

"It's irrelevant if the effect is positive or negative." Sure it's relevant. One builds the game up, one destroys it. Just ask the players of the Xbox One who are enjoying the cloud connectivity. Oh wait, there is no cloud connectivity, no family game sharing, no sharing or selling of games that are down-load only. Because instead of working with Microsoft to find a solution that would allow these features while still supporting the used games market, the vocal minority was overwhelmingly negative and ruined those features for everyone else. So much for a truly next-gen device from Microsoft. (cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

27-Jun-2013 00:36:46

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.

If you read carefully, he does not outright say the Forumers are a vocal minority. He said he wants to see IF those Forumers represent the majority or are just saying it for the hell of it.

So far, the Forumers in RS have been representative of the will of the majority.
Ultimately, it's at best asinine to say the "vocal minority" holds no merit, assuming there even is one.
And again, you can't point to the FT/Wildy vote as saying the vocal minority was successful, because - and pay attention - p/w weren't required, meaning that usernames could be culled from highscores, meaning those positive votes for it could have come from a minority of players (voting multiple times under accounts that weren't even theirs), NOT a majority. This is reinforced by all the problems it has since caused, with luring, gambling, begging, increase of bots and non-Jagex RWT and other abuses, and people saying afterwards that they did vote for it but either a)they since changed their minds, or b)they only voted for it to get the one, but not the other.

And suuuuure, '07scape server (and the resulting threat of legal action against them by Jagex) had nothing to do with the creating of the 07 server, nope, it was all the vocal minority in the forums. And AGAIN, I point out that even if you count only 1% of the 200million + registered accounts, the votes for the 07 server was less than 25% of that figure. Still a minority. And some of those votes were from players who weren't interested in the 07 server - like me - I just wanted the belly achers to shut up about it already, and figured if they're on the 07 server, they're not on the main server so less competition for resources and NPCs.

And I never said that the vocal minority was completely without merit, what I said was it doesn't trump the majority and never will. Otherwise we wouldn't have had EoC, we wouldn't continue to have the SoF, we wouldn't have lodestones, etc etc My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

27-Jun-2013 00:51:32

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BTS 58 More Lodestones