RuneScape Forum Archive | BTS 58 More Lodestones

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Matchgirl42 post:

"You mean you employ troll tactics in your responses?"

Please explain where I'm trolling you, because telling you you need common sense to answer basic questions isn't trolling.

"the 10%, the vocal minority, gets their way and drives off 90% of the customer base. Which is WHY companies CAN and many times SHOULD disregard the vocal minority"

They BOTH have majorities, just different kinds. The 10 have the monetary majority while the 90 have the population majority. You looked at it strictly from a population standpoint. Following your previous logic, the company should have only listened to the 10 because those 10 would generate the most profit from them. However, the 10 is the minority in the company, or in other words, using your logic:

If an entity is a company, then their primary motive is to make the most money.

The 10 people out of 100 total hold the most money.

Therefore, the company should only cater to the 10.

Following that, that would imply you're only listening to the vocal minority, which you said should be disregarded. However, that 10, also at the same time, would make the company the most money, which, as you said, is a company's primary motive, so they should listen to the 10. Ultimately, you're implying that they SHOULD listen to the 10 because they'll make the company the most profit as that is supposed to be their primary motive, but at the same time you're implying that the 10 should be disregarded in the company's decision because they're a vocal minority. Therefore, a contradiction has occurred.

And that, my friend, is the beauty of the Elenchus Method. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

27-Jun-2013 09:24:10

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"And suuuuure, '07scape server (and the resulting threat of legal action against them by Jagex) had nothing to do with the creating of the 07 server. nope, it was all the vocal minority in the forums."

"We didn't want to be able to promise anything we knew we couldn't deliver, and once we actually found a backup, which, in truth, had a bit of luck to it too. We thought it only right to gauge the actual interest of the community"

- Mark Gerhard, Behind the Scenes video 41.

Taking what he says at face value, that means he proposed the idea because he wanted to see if the voices on the forums, who were saying Runescape from ~06 is extremely popular, etc were actually being honest. He then ordered OSR to be implemented after seeing it made the threshold of 50K. That being said, the only connection private servers would have to the vote were the outcries by the "vocal minority" saying old Runescape was extremely popular.

As for the "vocal minority":

there were 449k votes. there are 612k subbed accounts currently. That means roughly 73% of the members voted for OSR. But, I'm going to tickle the idea further.

800K subbed accounts at its peak (roughly). 449K votes. that's 56% of the members voted for OSR.

Both case they're the majority which was raised by the vocal minority, which reinforces my point further.

"And AGAIN, I point out that even if you count only 1% of the 200million + registered accounts, the votes for the 07 server was less than 25% of that figure."

Registered does not imply that the accounts are active or players even. For instance:

How many of the accounts are bots?

How many are banned accounts, both bot accounts and legitimate players?

How many accounts are locked?

How many accounts were 1 timers? (person played the game 1 time, thought it was crap, and never played again)

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

27-Jun-2013 10:14:49 - Last edited on 27-Jun-2013 11:02:15 by Team Skull

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

How many accounts are "dormant"? (haven't been played within a certain time period)

How many accounts are F2P? (vote was Member's only after all)

Lastly, How many of those accounts are alts?

I don't even need to get into other arguments to prove your entire argument here is moot. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

27-Jun-2013 10:19:58

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@D4 BE45T

-Using the elenchus method *is* trolling. If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be using it.

-If the 10% has the money majority, driving off 90% of the customer base wouldn't cause the company to shut down, if we're talking about strictly a subscription model, and not an advertising revenue model. And remember, Jagex/runescape uses a hybrid of both models for their revenue stream. Even in the subscription-only model, under the freemium system (which runescape is), the f2p players count as possible future revenue, so their opinions/usage should count as well.

-the private '07scape server is actually proof that Jagex disregarded the vocal minority for a time. It wasn't until Jagex threatened legal action and shut it down that they took the call for 07scape seriously. And you can't say you shouldn't take what a company CEO says at face value when it doesn't support your points then change your mind when it does support your points. I refer you back to debating 101.

-As I said to another player, if you are going to discount the f2p game/f2p players/f2p votes as not counting, then you've just lost the argument. And as I noted above, f2p players are valued as future revenue (as many, such as myself, start out as f2p and become p2p). Of course, the OSR vote was members only, but seeing as the last official number of subscribed accounts released by Jagex was 8.5 million in 2009, it's all guesswork. 612k current subbed accounts seems like a long drop from 8.5 million in only 4 years, even with the bot nuke. Of course, Mark Gerhard said in the same interview with the 200 million account figure that their f2p/p2p ration is "roughly 70/30", which puts the current subscribed figure, if we look at just 1% of that 200 million registered accounts (which is an extremely conservative estimate) at 600k. Again, that's an *extremely* conservative estimate. (cont) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

30-Jun-2013 04:22:49

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@D4 BE45T

(cont) A more realistic estimate would be 10% of those registered accounts, which puts the subscribed figure at 6m. But again, this is all guesswork until an official figure is released by Jagex.

And that's just counting members. Again, yes, the OSR was a members-only vote, but being that the f2p/p2p ratio is 70/30 as Mark Gerhard said, that makes the membership a minority. And even if we count just the members numbers, as above, 449k is a measly 7.4 percent of members, a very small minority. You have to take the estimate of subscribing members to an *extremely* conservative (and thus likely false) estimate of 1% of the 200m+ registered accounts to make it a majority. Now that's reaching, my friend.

As for your questions, they were already addressed by counting only a percentage of the 200m+ registered accounts. Notice I wasn't claiming the entire 200m+ as active accounts? I can't believe I even have to explain this to you, it's so obvious. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

30-Jun-2013 04:51:12

Jun

2023

Bruce Willis

Posts: 5,968 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I see so much complaining on this thread it's ridiculous

1.)The point of quests is to further the game, provide storylines and enjoyment, and allow the player more options. You can STILL use the quest rewards if you want, but you don't /HAVE/ to.

2.)Just because things are easier doesn't mean the game is less fun. That's the same argument as "I like my ice cream to be frozen solid because it's better if I have to wait for it to thaw rather than just heat it up and then eat it." The game doesn't lose value by making things SLIGHTLY easier to get to, if you think that chances are you didn't find the game very fun in the first place.

3.)You still have to do quests to unlock a majority of these lodestones. The lunar island lodestone is only available AFTER the quest, and considering you lose /NOTHING/ of value by getting there faster, you have nothing to complain about.

4.)"Oh it makes certain modes of transportation useless, waaah!" Cry about it more, innovation is a part of life, if you don't like it, don't use it. If people didn't make the CD because they were afraid of making records go out of business, we'd have albums with a lot less songs on it. Some argue the quality sounds better but guess what? YOU CAN STILL USE RECORDS, THEY'RE NOT DEFUNCT NOW. ¸¤·.¸.·¤´˜¨Live and let Die¨˜´¤·.¸.·¤¸
¸´·¸.·¤´˜¨´¤·.¸.·¤´˜¨´¤·.¸.·¤´·¸.·¤´

"Something, something, inspirational quote." -Me, just now.

30-Jun-2013 20:25:39

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Matchgirl42 post:

"Using the elenchus method *is* trolling. If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be using it."

Troll (verb): to submit a deliberately provocative message in a forum to instigate an angry response.

Please tell me how I am doing that with asking a simple question.

"-If the 10% has the money majority, driving off 90% of the customer base wouldn't cause the company to shut down"

Yes, but that 10% is also the vocal minority, which you said yourself should be disregarded. Thus, you are STILL contradicting yourself between listening to the 10 because they would bring in the most money, and disregarding them because they are the vocal minority. Try again please.

"And remember, Jagex/runescape uses a hybrid of both models for their revenue stream. Even in the subscription-only model, under the freemium system (which runescape is)"

Actually, my question still allows for the compensation of a new introduction, even if that new introduction is a freemium system. In my question, replace "introduction" with "freemium", it doesn't change the question at all.

Hell, my question even implies the introduction of the freemium model with the 10 out-buying the 90's revenue to the company, which ultimately STILL means you're saying the company should listen to the 10 because of their superior profit potential while also disregarding them because they're the minority, which is STILL a contradiction, so try again.

"the f2p players count as possible future revenue, so their opinions/usage should count as well."

They've ALWAYS counted as revenue, which is why it is against the rules for f2p to block advertisements. If I remember right, them playing on f2p servers without membership generates roughly 20% of Jagex's profit. They were even consulted on the design of the vet cape. So, moot point. Try again.

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

01-Jul-2013 09:47:54 - Last edited on 01-Jul-2013 09:50:12 by Team Skull

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"the private '07scape server is actually proof that Jagex disregarded the vocal minority for a time."

And private servers were around even before EoC, so EoC and/or 07 have nothing to do with the supposed popularity of private servers. Your point's irrelevant here. Also, you have your years wrong on the server stuff, might wanna recheck on that. If you really want to know what started it, it was a "vocal minority" who said the people want an '06 server. However, their supposed earliest backup was from August of 07, so MMG decided to host a vote, in which the threshold was met, so now we have 07 servers.

"And you can't say you shouldn't take what a company CEO says at face value when it doesn't support your points then change your mind when it does support your points."

Actually, I've said to ONLY take what Company Execs say at face value, which was what I did quoting MMG. Therefore, my point still stands and nice Equivocation by the way. If I need to, I can give you the unedited quote where I explicitly say that. So again, moot point of yours and try again.

"As I said to another player, if you are going to discount the f2p game/f2p players/f2p votes as not counting"

F2P never voted with the Old School Servers because Jagex decided to not have F2P vote (Administrative Selection Bias), so how can I discount something that was already discounted? Therefore, my point still stands. The flaw in your statement is REALLY obvious.

"but seeing as the last official number of subscribed accounts released by Jagex was 8.5 million in 2009"

That was 4 years ago. A lot has changed since then, both in RS and IRL. that figure is not representative, at all. Also, I will ask you the same string of questions:

continued "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

01-Jul-2013 10:30:55

Aug

2008

Team Skull

Posts: 24,511 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

How many were/are bot accounts?

How many accounts have been banned since then?

How many were 1 timers?

How many have quit since then?

How many are alts?

How do they count the subscriptions?

And those just assume that "subscribed" means "member".

"Mark Gerhard said in the same interview with the 200 million account figure that their f2p/p2p ration is "roughly 70/30", which puts the current subscribed figure, if we look at just 1% of that 200 million registered accounts (which is an extremely conservative estimate) at 600k. Again, that's an *extremely* conservative estimate."

and the 70% is inflated more heavily by advert and skilling bots than the 30%. Therefore, an inaccurate ratio because you're implying every account is legitimate.

"And even if we count just the members numbers, as above, 449k is a measly 7.4 percent of members, a very small minority"

I mean, unless they're not showing 8.1M subscribers to us (the hiscores go as low as 33 total), and assuming that what's shown are the total amount of members, then the 449K is actually the majority, as I stated.

And here we are again, assuming all 200M accounts are perfectly intact. you literally have no credibility now, because anything in this game would be considered a minority, and they would always be contradicting themselves. Therefore, the 200M figure cannot be used at all due to the major discrepancies. If you cannot understand this, then you're debating with someone you cannot win against, which means I have won this argument. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

01-Jul-2013 11:05:19 - Last edited on 01-Jul-2013 11:07:57 by Team Skull

Jul

2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'm not going to explain this for you, I'm going to do so for the education of other readers of this thread. There are multiple types and ways to troll. While you are not being an obvious/blatant troll, you are still trolling. I would classify you as the more insidious tactical or strategic type of troll(This is where the troller takes the game more seriously, creates a credible persona to gain confidence of others, and provokes strife in a subtle and invidious way), possibly even a psycho troll (These trolls have an unconscious psychological need to feel good by asserting dominance (especially in areas they are not actually dominant in) and making others feel bad), now that I've read your responses to other threads.

Common tactics these types of trolls use are answering questions with other questions, and commonly using the elenchus and other methods to "trap" and "trip up" their victims. They commonly dismiss and/or ignore any proof offered that does not support their position (which is why they love forums like this one where links aren't allowed) and often twist their own words in addition to the words of their victims (as D4BEAST has done here multiple times and in other threads he's posted in). They commonly claim they have won just when they have lost. (See above).

The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I have not done this before because I did not recognize at first that he was trolling this thread (which is why tactical/strategic trolling is so insidious, it's difficult to spot at first). But now that I have recognized his tactics, I'm going to stop feeding the troll. I suggest you do the same, and watch for this behavior from him in the future/on other threads, and do as I'm going to do - ignore it. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

02-Jul-2013 00:46:05

Forums

BTS 58 More Lodestones