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Southeaster
Nov Member 2014

Southeaster

Posts: 15,320 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
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The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I have not done this before because I did not recognize at first that he was trolling this thread (which is why tactical/strategic trolling is so insidious, it's difficult to spot at first). But now that I have recognized his tactics, I'm going to stop feeding the troll. I suggest you do the same, and watch for this behavior from him in the future/on other threads, and do as I'm going to do - ignore it.
Looks to me that he out-argued you and you're just sore at losing. Runescape Forumers Discord Server

02-Jul-2013 11:12:08

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
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Looks to me that he out-argued you and you're just sore at losing. Nope. If you look back at his postings, the pattern becomes clear. Especially with his last - twisting my words so he could claim that I hadn't answered his questions (when I had, several times). And that's just one thread in the pattern, on this one specific thread. Plus contradicting himself and then claiming that I had contradicted myself when I hadn't (classic case of transference). The other threads he's participated in - well. It's pretty evident, from the posts he's made that the mods *haven't* yet hidden. He's a troll.

I made a pretty clear and winning case for my positions, to be honest. Just the fact that he felt the need to twist my words shows that - he couldn't refute it without doing so. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

03-Jul-2013 06:51:24 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2013 06:51:54 by Matchgirl42

Southeaster
Nov Member 2014

Southeaster

Posts: 15,320 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm not going to go into which trolling tactic were used or what, or whatever type of statistical bias because I'm not well-read in that area, but one particular point you two were arguing about caught my eye.
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And AGAIN, I point out that even if you count only 1% of the 200million + registered accounts, the votes for the 07 server was less than 25% of that figure. Still a minority.
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Again, yes, the OSR was a members-only vote, but being that the f2p/p2p ratio is 70/30 as Mark Gerhard said, that makes the membership a minority. And even if we count just the members numbers, as above, 449k is a measly 7.4 percent of members, a very small minority. You have to take the estimate of subscribing members to an *extremely* conservative (and thus likely false) estimate of 1% of the 200m+ registered accounts to make it a majority. Now that's reaching, my friend.

You used the number of 8.5 million, which was released in 2009. But D4 used the current number of subscribers, which is slightly over 600k as seen from Hiscores , and extrapolated from there. I don't have to say which figure seems more credible.

He called you out twice on this point. The first time you said that you used the 200m figure as an estimate for a percentage, when it clearly should never have been used because of the flaws used to achieve that figure (bots, F2P, one-timers), and the second time you outright called him a troll.

Not really a clear and winning case to me. Runescape Forumers Discord Server

03-Jul-2013 11:36:48 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2013 11:42:13 by Southeaster

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Southeaster

And yes, as I pointed out twice to him as well as to another poster(before he even chimed in), the reason that I was taking a percentage of the 200 million was because you can't claim the whole figure - for all the reasons he listed (and more), thus answering his questions/"calling me out on it" THREE TIMES. And even with taking that percentage down to an *extremely* conservative level - 1 percent - that still made the votes for OSR a minority of (guessed, again because there's no official figure from jagex) active accounts.

As I also noted several times, and I quote, "But again, this is all guesswork until an official figure is released by Jagex." Using hiscores is *also* guesswork and not an official figure, as the lowest ranked has an overall level of 33. So:

How many players are not counted in that figure/list because they are lower than level 33/1000 xp? The people who use the game to socialize or strictly merch, and don't work on their skills/gain xp? And need I remind you that only paying accounts are listed on the high scores? Not f2p?

We can't know that without a current, official figure from jagex. Just like we can't know the f2p/p2p ratio without a current, official figure from jagex. We have to guess.

So, one way of guesswork (going off a percentage of the offical 200million+ registered accounts) is just as valid as the other (going off of hiscores), as both are equally questionable. And again, without an official figure from Jagex, it's ALL guesswork/educated guesses. The main difference between the two is which claim the numbers support. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

03-Jul-2013 12:41:31 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2013 13:07:16 by Matchgirl42

Southeaster
Nov Member 2014

Southeaster

Posts: 15,320 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Sorry, but I still cannot see where you're coming from.
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@Southeaster

And yes, as I pointed out twice to him as well as to another poster(before he even chimed in), the reason that I was taking a percentage of the 200 million was because you can't claim the whole figure - for all the reasons he listed (and more), thus answering his questions/"calling me out on it" THREE TIMES. And even with taking that percentage down to an *extremely* conservative level - 1 percent - that still made the votes for OSR a minority of (guessed, again because there's no official figure from jagex) active accounts.
D4 already pointed out why you shouldn't have used the 200 million figure, and so have I. It doesn't make sense to say that ''449k is 0.25% of 200 million, so 0.25% is a minority, and a tiny one at that''.
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How many players are not counted in that figure/list because they are lower than level 33/1000 xp? The people who use the game to socialize or strictly merch, and don't work on their skills/gain xp?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you automatically have a skill level of 34 and a exp total of 1,154 the moment you create an account and subscribe?
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And need I remind you that only paying accounts are listed on the high scores? Not f2p?
Yes, and because the OSR vote was members only, this made the number of names on the Hiscores all the more relevant. That's the thing. Why are you dragging F2P into this? They couldn't vote.

continued Runescape Forumers Discord Server

03-Jul-2013 17:27:20 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2013 17:42:33 by Southeaster

Southeaster
Nov Member 2014

Southeaster

Posts: 15,320 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
continued

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We can't know that without a current, official figure from jagex. Just like we can't know the f2p/p2p ratio without a current, official figure from jagex. We have to guess.
I fully agree with that, but it's in how educated your guess is. I'm coming to that now.
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So, one way of guesswork (going off a percentage of the offical 200million+ registered accounts) is just as valid as the other (going off of hiscores), as both are equally questionable.
Unless I'm greatly mistaken, because you are automatically on the Hiscores if you subscribe, the number on the Hiscores is an accurate representation of the number of members in Runescape at that point in time. Which would mean that D4's method of guesswork is less questionable than yours.

Edit: Okay, I see that the last two or three names on Hiscores have a skill level of 33 and 1,000 or 1,083 total exp. But given that you cannot have anything less than 34 total and 1,154 exp when you start, it appears to be a glitch to me.

I'll be flying to another country in a few hours' time, so I won't be checking back for a few days at least. Runescape Forumers Discord Server

03-Jul-2013 17:32:45 - Last edited on 03-Jul-2013 17:37:02 by Southeaster

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Southeaster,

I'm not arguing that hiscores is a representation (however flawed) of subscribing members. Jagex made the OSR vote members-only, so yes, within that limited population, the vote for OSR was not a minority.

However.

Within the runescape playerbase at large - and by that I mean f2p and p2p and classic - the vote is still a minority. Because, according to the only official figure we have to go on (until Jagex releases another, more current one), the f2p/p2p ratio is around 70/30, meaning subscribed accounts themselves are a minority. While this would seem to support d4's point that a minority/the vocal minority effected a change, I *again* point out that there was an outside event that brought the OSR vote about in the first place - the creation of a separate, privately owned server 07scape that Jagex then brought legal action against (or at least threatened legal action against) - that brought the matter to their attention/made them take it seriously. NOT the vocal minority in the rs forums, regardless of what Gerhard may have said in the introduction of the vote for OSR. (And by the by, this is one of the instances where he contradicted himself. He said, back when I quoted both Gerhard and the vp of another company that the vocal minority does not trump the majority, he said you couldn't take the word of a CEO of a gaming company at face value because they are paid to take a rosy picture (paraphrasing here). Then, when he quoted Gerhard about the OSR vote, he said it must be taken at face value (again, paraphrasing here). That's a contradiction in terms.)

Another thing he has failed to realize is that both the FT/Wildy vote and the OSR vote were not valid, by his own terms that he attempted to invalidate the EoC survey with - we can't know how many dual votes there were, we can't know how many were fraudulent. And besides, we also can't know how many people voted who had no intention of ever using OSR (I'm one), etc. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

04-Jul-2013 00:32:27

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Also, I had been planning for some time to create an alt account, to try for a pure. So I did that today, but it's taking some time to get the verification email. Once I do, I'll be able to tell you exactly how much xp/what lvl players start with. My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

04-Jul-2013 01:36:20

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Yeah, ok. Players start out at ttl lvl 34 - because they start with constitution of 10. Still doesn't give the full picture of active accounts though, as it doesn't include f2p.

(Actually, hiscores could be used to bolster both arguments. Since the OSR vote was members only, that means a majority of members voted - which means the majority trumped the (vocal) minority. But, if you look at all active accounts - and again it's guesswork without an official figure from jagex, so we have to guess - the 1% of the 200million+ registered accounts figure jives with what the figure would be if you apply the 70/30 f2p/p2p ratio to the hiscores figure - 2 million. Going off that figure, it would be a minority of active accounts. And the same above arguments applies - that the vote happened in the first place because of an outside influence, not the hubbub in the forums. And that some members - like me - voted not because we ever had any intention of using OSR, we just wanted the ppl in the forums to stop bellyaching about it. Alas, the bellyaching in the forums over EoC continues, because the vocal minority in the forums (the part that is overwhelmingly negative) have shown again and again that nothing jagex can do will ever be enough for them.) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

05-Jul-2013 04:23:04

Matchgirl42
Jul Member 2011

Matchgirl42

Posts: 560 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(Also: UGH. I forgot just how much of a pain it is when your character is just starting out in RS. The same reason I have no intention of *ever* setting virtual foot in OSR. I may have to rethink this pure thing.) My motto is to be nice if I can, but also to not suffer trolls.

05-Jul-2013 04:25:31

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