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Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.


Adding a Kraken Tenacle to a whip improves the whip. It is neither invention nor shamanism.
Adding a Kraken Tenacle gives use to underused whip. It is still neither invention nor shamanism.

Shamanism just aims to create more of few selected items like Kranken Tenacle, but unknown and not even being investigated at this point. It is not really a needed skill, unlike Invention in RS3 which improves most items systematically with almost every single item.


Using your reductive logic:

Shooting an arrow damages.
Swinging a sword damages.
Casting a Fire Wave damages.

Clearly Melee, Strength, Ranged and Magic aren't their own unique skills. Just remove them all and replace them with "Damage, the skill."

Woodcutting gathers a resource.
Mining gathers a resource.
Fishing gathers a resource.
Farming gathers a resource.

Welp, remove them all and just add "Gathering".


When you reduce a skill to its very basic function, they all sound the same. It's so disingenuous to suggest that, because features that improve gear already exist, we cannot add a skill that adds an expanded method of improving gear. As if because Smithing refines a raw material into gear, No other skill can ever refine a raw material into a piece of gear. Your logic creates a game with 3, maybe 4 skills max. You've created a standard for a new skill by which it is impossible to actually qualify. You imply the new skill must not be in any way similar to any feature currently in game. In a game as old as RS, you cannot name me a skill that I can't relate to an already existing feature. You've designed a standard that can never be met, because you'd don't want it met.

They literally mentioned Shamanism can be used to improve your gear. "your gear" generically, as in generic buffs that can be applied to a broad variety of gear. What they've described and what you describe are two very different things. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 04:37:21 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 04:49:51 by Lelouch Vi B

Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.


Adding a Kraken Tenacle to a whip improves the whip. It is neither invention nor shamanism.
Adding a Kraken Tenacle gives use to underused whip. It is still neither invention nor shamanism.

Shamanism just aims to create more of few selected items like Kranken Tenacle, but unknown and not even being investigated at this point. It is not really a needed skill, unlike Invention in RS3 which improves most items systematically with almost every single item.


Like seriously, by the standard you're setting here of "a new skill cannot be related to an already existing feature" i.e. Shamanism improves gear, but gear improvements methods already exist. You create an impossible to achieve standard. Name me any skill. Anything, and I'll show you how your standard disqualifies it.


Pokemon, the skill!
> Nah we already catch things with Hunter, not to mention we have combat already.

Light speed space travel, the skill!
> Moving faster and farther? We literally already have agility, teleports, fast travel methods...

Sitting around doing literally F*** all, The skill!
> Yeah, Farming exists already...

Pooping, the skill!
> Ehhh, you're basically just making fertilizer, which is just compost. Not original. Besides, it requires eating which is already a part of combat and cooking.


Even the most absurd and far-flung concepts don't meet your standard. You've literally designed a standard that makes a new skill impossible. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 04:52:58 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 04:56:55 by Lelouch Vi B

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,168 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.
Original message details are unavailable.


Adding a Kraken Tenacle to a whip improves the whip. It is neither invention nor shamanism.
Adding a Kraken Tenacle gives use to underused whip. It is still neither invention nor shamanism.

Shamanism just aims to create more of few selected items like Kranken Tenacle, but unknown and not even being investigated at this point. It is not really a needed skill, unlike Invention in RS3 which improves most items systematically with almost every single item.


Like seriously, by the standard you're setting here of "a new skill cannot be related to an already existing feature" i.e. Shamanism improves gear, but gear improvements methods already exist. You create an impossible to achieve standard. Name me any skill. Anything, and I'll show you how your standard disqualifies it.



I absolutely didn't mean it.

I mean there will be very little Invention in Shamanism if the latter only caters to a small number of specific items. Invention in RS3 is a generic skill covering almost all items in that game.

28-Mar-2023 05:07:20

Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.


I absolutely didn't mean it.

I mean there will be very little Invention in Shamanism if the latter only caters to a small number of specific items. Invention in RS3 is a generic skill covering almost all items in that game.


Did you watch the video they released on it? Genuinely if you haven't, give it a look. It's a lot of good info and people on here are seriously oversimplifying everything.

They do not say that these buffs are limited to specific items. They actually mention they want the players to decide just how many items can be buffed, what these buffs will do, and how long they will last.

They also mentioned that gear improvement will only be a portion of the skill. There will also be products such as Totems, Incense, Oils, among others, that provide different passive or active buffs to the player, much like many of the non-gear inventions you can make in RS3. The skill will do far more than just improve gear. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 05:13:20 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 05:18:36 by Lelouch Vi B

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,168 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.
Original message details are unavailable.


I absolutely didn't mean it.

I mean there will be very little Invention in Shamanism if the latter only caters to a small number of specific items. Invention in RS3 is a generic skill covering almost all items in that game.


Did you watch the video they released on it? Genuinely if you haven't, give it a look. It's a lot of good info and people on here are seriously simplifying everything.

They mentioned that gear improvement will only be a portion of the skill. There will also be products such as Totems, Incense, Oils, among others, that provide different passive or active buffs to the player. The skill will do far more than just improve gear.

Not only did I watch the video, I read the blog too. None of these totems, incense, oils etc show much Invention. We have pretty much all these things in RS3 and they didn't come from Invention (e.g. Totems come from different sources including killing, skilling, minigames, exploration and more, incenses come from herblore).

What you told us about Shamanism is not true:
" But it also evokes a lot of the stronger positives of Invention in RS3, with the ability to improve your items/gear while simultaneously revitalizing previously dead content."

Invention in RS3 makes use of almost all existing items including junk to create GENERIC perks for all kinds of gear and tools. Shamanism only scraps the tip of the iceberg, not a lot of the stronger positives of Invention in RS3.

28-Mar-2023 05:29:04

Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.


Not only did I watch the video, I read the blog too. None of these totems, incense, oils etc show much Invention. We have pretty much all these things in RS3 and they didn't come from Invention (e.g. Totems come from different sources including killing, skilling, minigames, exploration and more, incenses come from herblore).


You are being way, way, waaaaay too specific with things for the express purpose of being correct. Invention added the ability to improve your gear with generic buffs, as well as adding a bunch of consumable products to grant buffs to the player. Shamanism seeks to add the ability to improve your gear with generic buffs, as well as add consumable products to buff the player.

You're overly specific when it suits you, suggesting Shamanism's buffs and boons aren't similar to Invention's, because they aren't literally the same exact items as Invention's; who cares where the items come from in RS3? The D warhammer doesn't come from Lizardman Shamans in RS3, therefor it shouldn't in OSRS either?? But you're also overly generic when it suits you, suggesting that Shamanism isn't unique because we can already buff a few pieces of gear in game.

Original message details are unavailable.

What you told us about Shamanism is not true:
" But it also evokes a lot of the stronger positives of Invention in RS3, with the ability to improve your items/gear while simultaneously revitalizing previously dead content."

Shamanism lets you buff your gear, create consumable products that buff you, and does this using currently underutilized areas/items. Invention lets you buff your gear, create consumable products that buff you, and uses underutilized items to do so. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 05:44:07 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 05:50:16 by Lelouch Vi B

Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.

Invention in RS3 makes use of almost all existing items including junk to create GENERIC perks for all kinds of gear and tools. Shamanism only scraps the tip of the iceberg, not a lot of the stronger positives of Invention in RS3.

Invention is a great skill, but let's be honest. The reason it's so broad, as you describe, is because it has bulk filler. Many useless components and perks that are literally never used, but just exist so everything can be integrated. I'm sure most players would agree the skill would be just as good, if not better, if these useless placeholders were removed, and the skill was refined down to a more targeted selection of perks/components. Seriously, who uses Dragonbait or Antitheism? These perks add nothing to the game but annoyance when a mid-level player tries to roll a decent perk and it gets paired with that garbage. Also don't pretend Invention just came into being as it is today, flawless and perfect in every way. I remember launch; it was rough and ugly. Invention has had many, many facelifts over the years to make it what it is today (We are talking about Invention, right? The skill that launched with the Perk Mysterious, which Devs admit literally did NOTHING on launch???). To expect Shamanism in early concept stage to be as broad and in depth as a skill thats been refined and reworked over, and over, and over for several years, is just plain ridiculous. Again, setting standards that are impossible to achieve, because you don't want them achieved.


I feel like many people forget vanilla Invention:

- Item levels did nothing but affect xp for disassembling.
- 90% of perks were negative or neutral at best.
- XP was heavily weighted in production rather than item leveling (My lv 5 whip disassembled for 7k xp...)
- Rare components were never guaranteed from any item.
- The skill had quite literally no content beyond level 99, despite going to 120. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 05:46:08 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 06:11:17 by Lelouch Vi B

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,168 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It is not me being specific, it is OSRS being vague and ambiguous on the purpose of Shamanism. They have yet to tell us what those passive and buffs are. They have yet to tell us what the totems, incense etc are, and we get the equivalent of some of them not even from skilling in RS3.

It is intended for some Invention perks to be not just useless but negatively affect us because of the randomness nature of the skill. Otherwise, all the good perks are useful for different scenarios

28-Mar-2023 06:06:16

Lelouch Vi B
Jan Member 2017

Lelouch Vi B

Posts: 2,111 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.
It is not me being specific, it is OSRS being vague and ambiguous on the purpose of Shamanism. They have yet to tell us what those passive and buffs are. They have yet to tell us what the totems, incense etc are, and we get the equivalent of some of them not even from skilling in RS3.

It is intended for some Invention perks to be not just useless but negatively affect us because of the randomness nature of the skill. Otherwise, all the good perks are useful for different scenarios


You're angry that the Devs aren't telling you every single specific detail of a skill that is currently in Early Concept Development... I wonder if you get mad at restaurants when your waiter tells you that you can't taste your food before it's been made... Such absolutely absurd expectations; You quite literally want Jagex to tell you information, that they themselves said they want to leave for the players to decide. You're asking Jagex to predict that future requests of players, write them down, and hand them to you on a silver platter. Unbelievable. If Jagex DID have these answers you seek, then it would be completely counter to the purpose of the skill design system they've presented, because these decisions are for the players, not for Jagex to make for us.


And no, the negative perks in Invention are wasteful bulk. There's a reason everyone says to ignore making gizmos until late into Invention, and that's because the feature is useless until the higher levels. You might as well not unlock Gizmos until lv 90, because everything you make before then is going to lean heavily into debuffing your gear. It's a very poor design and something Jagex still needs to work on, as it locks 75% of the levels of the skill out of a feature that they're supposed to have available to them immediately. Like Imagine if Herblore literally only made potions that debuff/hurt you until lv 75? Imagine how stupid that would be. Now with added
[SARCASM]
Warnings for those less astute!

Archaeology Elite Skill Suggestion

28-Mar-2023 06:13:39 - Last edited on 28-Mar-2023 06:19:41 by Lelouch Vi B

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