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Proposal: remove FMR. Thread is locked

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Immortalized
Mar Member 2006

Immortalized

Posts: 34,061 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Sorry, I have no intention to flame anyone, or blame anyone. Unfortunately due to how the forum works I am unable to review my own post to actually understand why it was actioned. I will try my best to say the same message again in a format that is appropriate.

Full disclaimer, this is not intended to flame anyone or blame anyone...

My personal thoughts are, when I read a message instructing someone to "use Forum Moderation Review" that it feels like flame-bating. I do not believe that in every circumstance this is the intention of the person who wrote that, that is just how I personally feel, because both parties fully understand that Jagex is not actively reviewing this thread, so the feedback ultimately does not result into anything practical. Even though this may be guideline and the person who wrote it is doing what they are instructed to do, you must be able to empathize how it feels from someone else's perspective to receive feedback that does not help you in any way.

To give an analogy, imagine my hypothetical scenario where you have parked your car in your designated parking spot. Then a security officer writes you a fine saying that you are not allowed to park here and you now have to pay it. You are reasonably upset, because you can prove that you should be able to park there, and he tells you to file a complaint with his department. Then you go to the department and find that there is nobody working there anymore, they are all on unexplained leave indefinitely.

Perhaps this is not a great analogy, but you can understand how the lack of actual review makes this feedback doubly upsetting for the victim here.

For what it is worth, I left feedback like this once and a Jagex employee agreed. I used to see comments like "keep an eye on your inbox" when someone was muted. I expressed my opinion this could be construed as flame-bating. A JMod agreed, and I do not see it since.

My apologies for any offense. It is not my intention; I am just sharing opinion. Buy Zemomarks / Chromatic Partyhats safely here

06-Feb-2022 21:48:33

Archaeox
Dec Member 2011

Archaeox

Posts: 53,399 Emerald Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Immortalized said :
My personal thoughts are, when I read a message instructing someone to "use Forum Moderation Review" that it feels like flame-bating. I do not believe that in every circumstance this is the intention of the person who wrote that, that is just how I personally feel, because both parties fully understand that Jagex is not actively reviewing this thread, so the feedback ultimately does not result into anything practical.
I think that seeing it as 'flame-baiting' is a bit harsh, as FMods are just doing what they have to do because of their guidelines, but I do understand what you're saying.

It is an extremely frustrating thing to see, because we know that anything sent to FMR just dies in the darkness, and the FMods know we know as well. Any response generated comes far too late to be meaningful.

This is what annoys me most of all: everyone using the forums KNOWS that FMR is dysfunctional, but
nothing is being done about it
.
~~~~ Just another victim of the ambient morality ~~~~

~~ Founder of the Caped Carousers quest cape clan ~~

!! Slava Ukraini - heroyam slava !!

07-Feb-2022 09:42:36 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2022 09:43:21 by Archaeox

Immortalized
Mar Member 2006

Immortalized

Posts: 34,061 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Maybe I can elaborate to explain better. It feels like a blanket statement to protect any action you do. It is not a thing you are saying in good faith, because you know that there is actually no practical appeal the person will be able to make. Forum mods basically have free roam without review. That does not mean they actually behave in this manner, but if they were to act in this manner, there is nothing in place to stop this until a Jagex employee decides to show up one day.

This deprives a lot of faith and confidence in the team to act objectively if there is no one in authority to personally review their actions. We are all humans here and have biases, and personally I have felt like some of that has come out one time or another. I am not here to name or shame, just saying the lack of review allows the possibility for this, even if it is not currently happening, and that itself is dangerous and unfair and creates a terrible environment for people to engage when they feel like they are being targeted.

More can be done than saying "You can post on FMR if you disagree." E.g., why not explain what you specifically found wrong, provide some steps to remediate, go an extra mile and quote out the relevant parts that are not offending rules in your opinion, say "I felt like you violated these rules" when interpreting someone's post to be violating instead of saying as a matter-of-fact for which they have no realistic recourse to challenge, etc. To be fair, I have seen few do this, but many times I don't; the victim cannot feel like this is fair at all if they believe they did nothing wrong.

There are also lots of things we do on the forums that can create such perceptions of bias. For example, posting on Forum Help, post is hidden, nothing is performed, and no response! Perhaps the forum moderator had no ill intention, but this just feels like my concerns were not addressed and even potentially ignored on purpose. Subtle actions like these add up over time. Buy Zemomarks / Chromatic Partyhats safely here

07-Feb-2022 20:13:28 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2022 20:21:23 by Immortalized

Archaeox
Dec Member 2011

Archaeox

Posts: 53,399 Emerald Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Please remember that this thread is specifically about Forum Moderation Review, and NOT about the overall guidelines or operating procedures of the forum moderators.

Not disputing (or agreeing with) your points here, I just really don't want us to wander off topic ;)
~~~~ Just another victim of the ambient morality ~~~~

~~ Founder of the Caped Carousers quest cape clan ~~

!! Slava Ukraini - heroyam slava !!

08-Feb-2022 08:51:38

Immortalized
Mar Member 2006

Immortalized

Posts: 34,061 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I agree, no intention to stray off, just putting in broader context to explain why I feel like, even if unintended, certain actions can feel flame-bating, since biases and the perception of being targeted and submitted claims that are "received but ignored" etc. Perhaps I should open another thread to discuss these, but good discussion here. Buy Zemomarks / Chromatic Partyhats safely here

08-Feb-2022 15:49:10

Wolfblue42

Wolfblue42

Posts: 3,962 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jeremy Cheng said :
why can't jagex give local mods access to a local mod use only jagex mod account for dealing with fmr? they could just limit the jmod account to only function on the forums.

Red tape. It's been like 3-4 years now? Right now I think Lmods accounts=fmods powerwise so they can't unhide posts even if they wanted to.

If they made Lmods above fmods then the issue would be resolved. They got like 2 active Lmods to do the role of fmr compared to the nonexistant gold mods on the forums.

But I've given up on any website change proposal. I know its a waste of breath to preach anymore.

11-Feb-2022 00:54:53

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17-Feb-2022 09:39:00

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