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Futon
Jun Member 2012

Futon

Posts: 4,394 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Yewnock said :
Futon said :
Yewnock said :
Futon said :
Why arent u putting lunging over aftershock on melee weapons as the damage boost to dismember is greater then the one 2.4k hit per min off aftershock I actually forgot Lunging worked with dismember (since walking doesn't affect its damage).

I'm still waiting for them to say something about the 1 minute cooldown on aftershock being intended or not.

If the cooldown was fixed u remove precise5 off melee and replace with aftershock lunging is the same dps increase as a full functional after shock with melee Hm... decided to make the calculations myself to check the numbers, and when I googled the perk to get the precise description and found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/4dz3u2/heres_why_lunging_perk_is_bad_math_inside/

A quick correction I saw there was that the average dps increase would be of ~39%, not 30% (dismember is usually 100%-188% weapon damage so 144% on average, with lunging 3 it should be 100%-300.8% or 200.4% on average). In that case, using on average 3.7 dismembers per minute (which may not always be realistic) would mean an extra ~144% ability damage per minute. And I must admit that doesn't sound that great; at 100k dpm and 2k ability damage that's under 3% average dps increase, much lower than precise's 6.25% or aftershock's 4.8% if it gets fixed (but still better than current aftershock, admittedly).

Unless I got the numbers wrong? And do they plan on actually leaving lunging work with dismember? Since it's actually different from frag shot and combust.

Here is the math in practice and how i honest ran the numbers. One after shock is based of weapon damage which is 2300~ for nox alright so it will do a 2.3k hit tops once a min aright sounds good and all but lets eval continue next post Twitter: @futonrs

14-Apr-2016 14:49:31

Futon
Jun Member 2012

Futon

Posts: 4,394 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
So dismember will do 1.4*2.3k without ovls or armour damage which effect it

Now add the 60% damage buff to that so its 2*2.3k

Now here comes the fun part assuming u get 3.7 off a min its (2-1.4)*2300*3.7 for the damage output = 5106 extra damage which is more than a full functionally functional after shock with melee unless this math is wrong.. Also ovls work on lunge doesnt on aftershock

Edit the kids math is extremely flawed and tbh an f grade considering he didnt read the perk text Twitter: @futonrs

14-Apr-2016 14:54:03 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2016 14:58:04 by Futon

Futon
Jun Member 2012

Futon

Posts: 4,394 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Perk text

The maximum damage of Combust, Dismember and Fragmentation shot is increased by 20% weapon damage per rank, but enemies that move will only take 1.5X increased damage.


Its 60% flat no varying and nox damage is 2011 my bad but redoing the calcs its 4464.2 more damage per min which nearly matches a functional after shock so i can see the point in not using it assuming the ability will be fixed which it most likly will not nor woild i count on it and as for the article equalbrim is bugged and not worth ur better off with precise/after and bitting on the armour Twitter: @futonrs

14-Apr-2016 15:03:51

Yewnock
Feb Member 2021

Yewnock

Posts: 1,216 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Futon said :
Perk text

The maximum damage of Combust, Dismember and Fragmentation shot is increased by 20% weapon damage per rank, but enemies that move will only take 1.5X increased damage.

Its 60% flat no varying and nox damage is 2011 my bad but redoing the calcs its 4464.2 more damage per min which nearly matches a functional after shock so i can see the point in not using it assuming the ability will be fixed which it most likly will not nor woild i count on it and as for the article equalbrim is bugged and not worth ur better off with precise/after and bitting on the armour Oh wait I think now it makes sense for me. Reading the perk description though, it's not clear for me: is the 60% increase flat or percentage increase? That actually makes a significant difference:

Damage range without lunging: 100%-188%, 144% average.
Case 1 (flat): damage range with lunging: 100%-248%, 174% average.
Case 2 (percentage): damage range with lunging: 100%-300.8%, 200.4% average.

Now the extra ability damage per minute:
Case 1: (174% - 144%) * 3.7 = 111%
Case 2: (200.4% - 144%) * 3.7 = 208.7%

Case 1, therefore, is worse than current aftershock; case 2 can be good. But the other dps perks (equilibrium 3, precise 5, "fixed" aftershock 3) give a percentage increase to dpm (4%, 6.25% and 4.8%, respectively), while lunging gives a flat increase. To compare them, I'll assume 100k dpm and ~2k ability damage, then case 2 gives an extra ~4.2k damage per minute, or 4.2% dpm increase. Better than equil (and works with biting), but still worse than precise and aftershock if they change it.

NOTE: I assumed, both on lunging and aftershock, that jagex means ability damage and not weapon damage (because I have hope they didn't repeat the same mistake with crackling on release - and in case of lunging it doesn't even make sense to be weapon damage). Makes huge difference for dual wield, not much for 2h's.

14-Apr-2016 18:30:55

Yewnock
Feb Member 2021

Yewnock

Posts: 1,216 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Futon said :
Also here is a better average compilation use this for ur math

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Lunging I didn't open that link because wiki has been making my browser crash :( I'll check it on my phone lol.

Edit: ok I saw that... and that reminded me that dismember is strange and it's actual average is not the median of the range. That changes things.

14-Apr-2016 18:32:09 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2016 18:42:27 by Yewnock

Futon
Jun Member 2012

Futon

Posts: 4,394 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lunging is based off ability damage which is highier than weapon comparsion after shock is based completly on weapon and also u have to take into consideration bitting > eq3 and ive been hearing issues with eq3 being broken in itself so thats why i dont bother using it and is a preference Twitter: @futonrs

14-Apr-2016 18:38:08

Yewnock
Feb Member 2021

Yewnock

Posts: 1,216 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Futon said :
Lunging is based off ability damage which is highier than weapon comparsion after shock is based completly on weapon and also u have to take into consideration bitting > eq3 and ive been hearing issues with eq3 being broken in itself so thats why i dont bother using it and is a preference If equilibrium works as intended, then it's better than biting 3 (which is 3.75% average dps increase, while equil is 4% - I can check the calculations later again if you want). Regardless, I mentioned equilibrium just because it was the most commonly used 2nd best perk before gwd2

As for aftershock, currently it's bad (and too expensive) so I won't bother with calculations about it. But the +4.8% dps for "fixed" aftershock I mentioned earlier is based on 2k ability damage. Since nox is 2011 weapon damage, it doesn't really change the numbers. If you are wondering what is the equation, calling D the final dpm, d the dpm without aftershock and W the weapon damage, then:
D = d + (d/50k) * 120% * W -> D/d = (1+0.00024*W)
If it makes it nicer to read, this means the damage increase from aftershock 3 is
((2.4 * W)/100k)%. For W = 2011 like a nox scythe, that's ~4.83% dps increase.

Anyway, ability damage is calculated by
((Tier * 9.6) + (SkillLevel * 2.5 + StrengthBonus)) * WeaponType
So using supreme ovls, full t90s armour/weapon, RoD and AoS that gives a base ability damage of ((90 * 9.6) + (118 * 2,5 + 228)) * 1.5 = 2080, which is not that far from nox's weapon damage (and is not even the best set up since augmented t80s are better, and other rings/amulets are usually used). Most of the time I round to 2k ability damage for simplicity; but with this number, the average dps increase of lunging on the calculations above would be ~4.34% at 100k dpm, which would still be lower than aftershock in case it's fixed.

However I need to remake those lunging calculations.

14-Apr-2016 20:06:26 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2016 20:26:51 by Yewnock

Yewnock
Feb Member 2021

Yewnock

Posts: 1,216 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Oh great it seems someone already made the calculations in the wiki while I was typing the previous post lol. That's convenient. I'll have a quick read then post again.

Yea so according to the calculations on wiki (which, in fact, assumes flat increase): the average damage without lunging is ~120.6% while with lunging 3 it would be ~144.2%. Again assuming 3.7 uses per minute, that's an extra (144.2% - 120.6%) * 3.7 = 87.3% extra ability damage per minute, which is pretty meh :/

14-Apr-2016 20:14:48 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2016 20:22:35 by Yewnock

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