RuneScape Forum Archive | A thought: Abolishing POKs

Spartae

Posts: 5,624 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Gotta be honest. I think this is the best solution for public roleplay . POKs have typically, historically been pretty self-interested, and have denied almost as much roleplay in some instances as they've created. They'd probably be better off as isolated private roleplays.

I mean, let's think about it. Most OOC-fueled conflict that is impacted by roleplay itself (rather than extenuating factors like cyberbullying, 'culture-war' disputes, etc.) is usually centered on a player-owned kingdom or two. Usually it's issues of one group disapproving another group issuing a challenge to the land that is, in someone's own eyes, illegitimate. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, a group sits on a plot of land and adamantly demands that any changes to the cityscape or any major interactions within the city must be run by it first. In POK's bids to "spur activity" by knowing who is within their city and who operates out of their city, they have often historically demanded that groups within the city be registered with them in some manner or other. Consequently, those groups can feel unnecessary pressure or as though they walk on eggshells.

Sure, I'm for it. Relegate POK's to the private roleplay sector.

I'm sure if enough public RPers agreed to it in some public declaration or whatnot, they could just walk out on the POK system and ignore it altogether. It would solve issues of split canons, it would get rid of this weird, skeevy impetus to interact with everybody (don't feel pressured to interact with your bully when nobody's in charge of the city you RP in anymore, eh?).

Best of all, in my eyes: It represents an opportunity for W42ers to redefine what public roleplay means and to recenter ideas of inclusion and equity in the philosophy of public roleplay.

Yeah, I'm down. If anybody wants to talk about it but isn't comfortable doing so on the forums, you can always find me IG.

02-Aug-2019 12:13:55

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'll be honest right back. This is a stupid idea and I've no idea why we are still discussing it at this stage.

OOC conflict isn't caused by POK's it's caused by roleplayers. Pick a group of them out at random, stick them in a room with some weapons and the only thing coming out of there will be the blood seeping under the door I can promise you that.

More to the point it will never happen. The current number of rpers agreeing to that declaration right now is zero.

It will create an additional split canon (the no poks canon)

It will try and force as many people as possible to interact with them and not with others because they will be a new canon in need of players and competing with the same limited pool of RPers as everyone else.

Worst of all it represents a step backwards for W42, an attempt to cling to an old concept for a "no work required" magic solution to all of W42's problems.

Yeah I think this is a terrible idea. If anyone wants to disagree with me on that but can't find me in game just remember that you're always free to just keep your opinions to yourself instead.

Regards
Lord Pyro
W42's Worst Nightmare "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

02-Aug-2019 20:31:51

Spartae

Posts: 5,624 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
OOC conflict isn't caused by POK's it's caused by roleplayers. Pick a group of them out at random, stick them in a room with some weapons and the only thing coming out of there will be the blood seeping under the door I can promise you that.

OOC conflict happens, sure. But it is extremely exacerbated by the POK structure, which encourages ideas of one group or individual having extreme influence over what does or doesn't fly in entire geographic areas of the map. Just look at the testaments of RPers who have literally said that toxic RP practices associated with POKs are why they left and tell me that it has no influence on OOC conflict.

Dubious and utterly incorrect. I reject this line of logic wholesale.

Original message details are unavailable.
More to the point it will never happen. The current number of rpers agreeing to that declaration right now is zero.

From forum posts in the first 2 pages of these forums alone, I have counted 15 unique RSNs that support the idea of stepping away from POKs.

Original message details are unavailable.
It will create an additional split canon (the no poks canon)

If that is what POK-canons want to perceive, I am sure they are welcome to it.

Original message details are unavailable.
It will try and force as many people as possible to interact with them and not with others because they will be a new canon in need of players and competing with the same limited pool of RPers as everyone else.

Nothing of the sort, but you are welcome to your interpretation.

Original message details are unavailable.
Worst of all it represents a step backwards for W42, an attempt to cling to an old concept for a "no work required" magic solution to all of W42's problems.

Hardly. This has never successfully been tried. Hard to step back from something never stepped forward.

Original message details are unavailable.
Yeah I think this is a terrible idea.

I am not terribly interested in opinions grounded in grandstanding for the POK-model, personally speaking. They tend to stop any meaningful change for tradition's sake.

02-Aug-2019 21:38:59 - Last edited on 02-Aug-2019 21:57:57 by Spartae

Jul

2010

CrocoNuts

Posts: 2,824 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Lord Pyro I said :

The current number of rpers agreeing to that declaration right now is zero.

‘Current’ and ‘right now’ are correctly used here. Lighten up Pyro, not every attempt to change W42 is stupid by default because it has impact on you that you concider to be negative. Try to go into this idea of Spart more open minded. Quickly learn how to Roleplay on RuneScape!

I am bad and that's good, I will never be good and that's not bad, there's no one I'd rather be than me.

02-Aug-2019 21:38:59

Mar

2012

Khaji

Posts: 1,256 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

POK's thrive when there are a lot of people around which we no longer have. When I first started most of the POK groups were pretty good. The best iteration of Kandarin in my opinion was Oliver Cleeves Kandarin. It had tons of different things going on at the same time and wasn't much of a fun sponge hindering rp. It housed one of the best plots on the server which involved some outside groups as well and devastated the kingdom. PVP rp is often messy, but again isn't always bad. In the first magi war plot it was full of pvp with little to no pok involvement. The plot was fun and people enjoyed the majority of the pvp in it. It wasn't until pok's tried to force their way into the plot and try and influence it that it began to fall apart.

POK's are a fun and great genre of rp. I proposed a soft reset of rp canon a long time ago. For people to set aside their old families and characters and start new ones. To leave everything else in history to be talked about in character. Its not a magic solution but a way to try and start fresh. I did it and it was good for me for a time. POK's have success and failures and with how few people we have left and the current state of POK's it might be best to shelve them for a time. Focus on bringing back what made them fun in the first place. Noble houses with feuds, guilds, businesses, and other such groups. If you are arguing about split canons thats already going on right now. People argue what the hell is and isn't "public canon" because we are all right and anyone who says otherwise is the bad guy. Also what is the point of a kingdom if there are little to no smaller groups inside them? Guilds are sat in cities not being used when there is a wealth of rp to be had in them. Most guilds that end up being used are not used as guilds. They are used as military forts and thats a shame. Lets get a resurgence of guilds and noble houses in the server.

02-Aug-2019 22:40:17

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Sparta

POKs are best just a convenient excuse for OOC hate. If you can rely on one thing in life it is that there will always be people you just can't get along with. Blaming that on the existence of poks makes about as much sense as blaming it on the existence of fish. And when I take a look at those testaments you mention all I see is that people find it easy to blame a convenient scapegoat than accept the root of the issues lies much closer to home.

You and I both count 15 people, it's just that I count 15 people who for all their fine words are not doing anything about it and I really doubt that they will.

As to your third point, perception doesn't come into it only reality. The reality being that as a group you either acknowledge the poks of one of the canons in which case your just a separate clan of sorts and hardly a moment against poks at all or you don't which makes you functionally makes you a separate canon irrespective of your perception.

Again interpretation doesn't matter the reality is whatever group you set up that refuses to rp within the poks will compete with the poks over players. It's pretty much basic maths.

Many things have never been successfully tried but that doesn't make them a step forward. Have you considered the possibility that the reason its never been successful is that its abad idea? If not that would be more or less the definition of insanity.

@Croco Seeing as I no longer RP I'm struggling to see what impact you think this will have on me personally. No I'm just an interested observer approaching this from the perspective of a neutral observer and immediately seeing just how flawed the plan is. Insofar as there is a"plan" on display here at all. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

03-Aug-2019 00:16:49

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Khaji Yes pok rp doesn't do as well when there aren't as many people. Which can in fact be said of all forms of rp.

Yes I'm aware there are already split canons which is why I'm advising against a plan that creates even more of them.

As for the rest of what you said, it seems to me that it is the best argument possible for seeking increased involvement in the poks, building those very guilds and noble families within the very poks that the vast majority of them have been created within throughout W42's history.

We don't need to abolish poks, we just need to cooperate with that which already exists to try and build larger and better RPs. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

03-Aug-2019 00:20:35

Nov

2013

Last Deterro

Posts: 512 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Lord Pyro I said :
@Khaji Yes pok rp doesn't do as well when there aren't as many people. Which can in fact be said of all forms of rp.

Yes I'm aware there are already split canons which is why I'm advising against a plan that creates even more of them.

As for the rest of what you said, it seems to me that it is the best argument possible for seeking increased involvement in the poks, building those very guilds and noble families within the very poks that the vast majority of them have been created within throughout W42's history.

We don't need to abolish poks, we just need to cooperate with that which already exists to try and build larger and better RPs.

The notion that removing POKs will cause even more split canons is ludicrous. While it's very plain to see that there are deep grudges in the w42 community, split canons at present simply allow for people to stay away from eachother, allowing those grudges to fester.

If people were to decide "Hey, today I want to make a noble house in Kandarin" - which Kandarin? You're immediately forced into making a decision, of who to ignore. More involvement with POKs is just going to further split the community.

The ideal solution is a situation where POKs are abolished in terms of "true kingdom" ownership. The highest any single person can be is a lord or a lady of a noble house, rather than being the king or queen of a region. In short, this would make it so nobody has to choose which canon to accept and which to ignore. All these groups really can coexist.

As for trying to say people aren't on board with the idea...look across this whole thread. For the mostpart, only those who disagree with this notion are the ones with vested interests in Player Owned Kingdoms.

Abolishing Player owned Kingdoms will NOT magically fix the w42 community. But it will force people to get along a little bit more and start getting people to work together more.
Thoughtcrime doesn't entail death. Thoughtcrime IS death.

03-Aug-2019 02:22:15

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Abolishing Player owned Kingdoms will NOT magically fix the w42 community. But it will force people to get along a little bit more and start getting people to work together more."

It will do nothing of the sort. You don't have the power to force anyone to do anything and that is fundamentally the issue. You can't force the poks to stop existing.

Abolishing poks is not even an option here. As you yourself point out people with vested interests in the poks (which is most of w42 these days, by which I mean since 2010) don't support this idea. So no matter how much your group want them to be abolished they'll keep on running.

That leaves us with three canons. Ridaku's, the Vekons and your new thing that doesn't acknowledge the poks of either. Your attempt to reduce the split in the community has in its opening move created a brand new split in the community. Congratulations.

More to the point we are talking about people that hate each other and have done for years. I don't dislike the other canon because they were holding pok land that I wanted, hell they gave me the only kingdom I ever really wanted free of charge and I gave it away to rid to achieve my goals. I oppose the other canon because of fundamental differences in our politics and moral values not to mention that they were unbelievably rude and disrespectful. I'm not quite clear how removing poks or forcing us into the same room together will resolve those differences. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

03-Aug-2019 02:52:47 - Last edited on 03-Aug-2019 02:53:29 by Lord Pyro I

Nov

2013

Last Deterro

Posts: 512 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Lord Pyro I said :
"Abolishing Player owned Kingdoms will NOT...

I'm not going to get into an internet argument with you over this, quite frankly, I don't have the time of day. You're factually wrong on several points, however.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm trying to shed light on a situation, see who'd be willing to actually sacrifice something to help the community heal, then push from there. The only valid point you've made so far is that so far, it's all just talk. And yes, it is. It's talk while people try to decide what the best course of action is.

Again - just look at this thread. Most people would be more than happy if POKs were no longer active as they are currently.

Again, to re-itterate my point I'm looking toward a way of unifying all canons, not further splitting them. You're either misunderstanding what I'm saying, or purposely fudging what I'm saying to make it seem like my point doesn't make sense.

Forcing people to be on a level playing field, where everyone can have their throne-room RPs without one group claiming full ownership...that won't fix everything, like I keep saying. What it will do is make it easier for new roleplayers to join, and will also help settle grudges between groups. Having to at least acknowledge that the others exist, even if they don't care to interact much, it's still a start, it's still something.

This is going to be my last post on this matter for now, but the only valid point you've brought to the table is that people haven't acted yet. This particular thread was just meant to gather opinions to see where people stand on POKs.

And except for the very few who are at the top of POKs, or were recently at the top of POKs, people would be much happier without them, that much is clear to me now. You can argue against that point all you like, but it's clearly shown here, and you can't really deny evidence.
Thoughtcrime doesn't entail death. Thoughtcrime IS death.

03-Aug-2019 03:14:04

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A thought: Abolishing POKs