RuneScape Forum Archive

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Vengeance of said :
If we were to cut the number of minigames down to eight ...:

- Castle Wars
- Soul Wars
- Deathmatch
- TzHaar Fight Pits
- Pest Control
- Stealing Creation
- Cabbage Facepunch
- Flash Powder Factory

I wonder why exactly those. Castle Wars and Soul Wars are in their essence the same game, with slightly different nuances - so they naturally will cannibalize one another, ignoring that SC can be played on a purely skilling based way, it also could apply to it (but to be fair I see it distinctly enough). Similar thing for fight pits and deathmatch - the few things from the pits easy could live up in DM.

I also do not really think, that removing for removing sake is the right solution - but it's obvious we have way more, than the community can sustain - so if we're condensing similar minigames together, the game won't lose too much (except for that one nuance), but then we basically have the chance, that at least the remainder will see some activity.

Generally I think there are two criterias, that should determine if a minigame should be culled or not:

- It's fubar (it's really broken and basically the effort to re-design it would become bigger than just introducing something entirely new in its place)
- What you do in there, you basically could do somewhere else (so yeah - basically we do not need 3 team red vs. blue pvp games - or general that insane amount of pvp games in general - just have one each team based (i.e. CW), solo (i.e. FoG) and ffa (i.e. DM) and focus properly on those)
- Not a criteria, but never remove something, without providing some kind of replacement - duel arena had this, mobilizing armies and rat catchers hadn't. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

02-Oct-2022 06:30:00

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

What's also an option - not entirely removing the mechanics per se, but rather have them evolve in an all timed available skilling activity. Imagine trouble brewing to be something like accidental firemaking and fletching - you can use the area at all times to skill cooking and firemaking (+some lower xp in the supporting skills) - just fix the early RS2 jank this game still features, remove mechanics like sabotaging, which do not fulfill any purpose already and amp up the xp rates to be adequate for medium levels - and we've just created something, players actually might want to use - without getting frustrated about nobody else being there when they want to do it. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

02-Oct-2022 06:30:09 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2022 06:38:05 by Rikornak

Mar

2018

Vengeance of

Posts: 2,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Rikornak said :
I wonder why exactly those.

I had a few criteria in mind when cultivating that list:

- What's actually played? When they've been on Spotlight, I've had no trouble finding games for most of them the past few years. Castle Wars, Soul Wars, and Pest Control are easily still the most popular minigames by far , while Stealing Creation is still fairly popular on Spotlight (if less so). Flash Powder and Cabbage Facepunch are available for solo play while also moderately popular for multiplayer (unlike Trawler, another possible solo minigame that literally no one seems to play beyond getting the Ardounge Tasks done). Fight Pits and Deathmatch, less so... however, they scored highly on the next category...

- What still has potential? Frankly put, most of the least popular minigames are products of their time. Some were ruined by mechanical updates (Heist and FoG needed the old restrictive draw distance for their stealth mechanics to be any good, so they're pretty much screwed now), some are simply obsolete (why would anyone play Trouble Brewing, Trawler, or Great Orb Project?), but at the end of the day, a minigame needs to offer a compelling purpose to play it (not just rewards). Most simply don't hold up by modern standards, like, at all.

But Fight Pits is, in essence, a proto- Battle Royale/last man standing mode. I genuinely think that, if it were added on Spotlight, it might actually stand a chance. Meanwhile Deathmatch offers straight up no-holds-barred, Safe PvP without needing to organize groups like Clan Wars. Those are experiences that people might, realistically, still want to play on RuneScape in 2022.

- Can we maintain a balance of interesting minigames? : Looking at the minigames that still have any interest, we see a clear trend: Safe PvP- and PvP-optional minigames are still popular... (cont.)

02-Oct-2022 07:56:15 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2022 07:58:07 by Vengeance of

Mar

2018

Vengeance of

Posts: 2,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

...but only saving that type of minigame is a disservice to players who don't like PvP or want to train other skills while taking part in minigames. Having a balance of minigames to appeal to different tastes is important (hence why we got so many to begin with); But; counterproductively, most of the skilling minigames are incredibly dead (see: Trouble Brewing, Great Orb Project, Heist). Flash Powder and Cabbage Facepunch are doing fine however, and Stealing Creation serves pretty much everyone, so it's a perfect minigame to make any hypothetical cut.

Of the strictly PvM minigames, only Pest Control seems to be remotely popular; Barbarian Assault is very dead despite having fantastic rewards. The exact reason for that? Hard to say exactly, but no skill that offers literally millions of BXP/hr should be as abandoned (my theory? The small team sizes, strict roles, and stress of trying to find groups cause the minigame to not resonate with players, something that Pest Control avoids by having 25-player teams making for a more casual atmosphere). It's not much to serve that part of the community, but it's something , and at least Soul Wars has PvM elements. That counts for something.

Coincidentally, I'm confident in saying that the one-on-one nature of Conquest is why that minigame is incredibly dead (seriously, that game could have been taken out years ago and the number of people who would have complained would probably fit on one hand). People seem to like free-for-alls or large teams; small teams or less are a seemingly a non-starter.

Either way, my list of eight has four strictly-ish PvP minigames (CW, SW, Fight Pits, Deathmatch) and four minigames that either have relatively minor PvP elements (Stealing Creation, CFB technically) or are purely skilling/co-op PvM affairs (FPF, PC). It's as close to a balanced mix as we're likely to get without including a lot more dead weight.

02-Oct-2022 08:18:12

Mar

2018

Vengeance of

Posts: 2,372 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Jack Flac said :
Vengeance of said :

snip... Removing is not the answer. It's jagex investing into things like a better group system, a global chat, and doing things like allowing IRonmen to purchase all rewards. Right now even if there are 10 people out there in game at there who all want to play Trouble Brewing online at the same time, they have no way of finding eachoter except sitting for hours at Trouble BRewing. See how this limits growth?

Make it easier to find people who want to play, make it easier to talk with people, so you don't have to just be standing right next to them to talk. If Jagex won't do something like this, peole will just keep walking away from the game. A MMO thrives on it's community. We have next to no real community in RS3. It can't all come down to the players to build it, Jagex needs to do things sometimes.

None of this changes the fact that the seemingly vast majority of players simply do not care about minigames or multiplayer-centric content in any form. Jagex learned that lesson the hard way in the mid-2010's, when they put out the BA rework, Heist, Deathmatch, god knows how many Wilderness updates, etc. and every single one of them was dead within weeks (hell, even PvM content like Solak got to a point where they had to retroactively make soloing viable just to keep it going). The stuff you're suggesting is only putting a bandage on a gangrenous limb; too little, too late to truly save it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't relish the idea of cutting out chunks of content; hell, I used to like some of the minigames that I'm saying they should axe, but at this point, no amount of easier grouping can cure this level of sheer apathy the community has for them. When people won't even AFK some of these minigames, literally the least they could do to justify their existence, they're too far gone to save. Better to save a few than let them all suffer.

02-Oct-2022 08:28:28 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2022 08:30:32 by Vengeance of

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Vengeance of said :
...

I can tell you why BA is so unpopular - the tutorial is boring and crap, it's extremely inaccessible, the healer basically is unplayable at level 1 (just take a look at how insanely the role improves just by going up to 2). It totally works fine if you got an existing group being able to deal with all this, but you won't get into something as a new player. And yeah - it has a steep learning curve in general, which also isn't too helpful. And yeah - while BA is extremely generous with experience - that's bascially it - you can gain experience in other places as well - and other than that it just go a couple of very outdated looking cosmetics.

Something like the trawler - there is just no point in playing it - the gameplay is increibly dull (albeit OS tried to make it better), the experience rates are crap (which OS did not fix), it has no tangible rewards (maybe-ish the shark necklace for catching wobbegongs - but this doesn't justfy playing this crap for tens and hundreds of hours - OS added their fishing outfit to this steaming pile of junk). Lots of other minigames have bigger or smaller faults, that just sum up - and it doesn't help, that you have to play those for extended amounts of time. Thing is I can't see for some to make something interesting out of them, but others really could have a second wind if they were to be made into a more general skilling activity (like my TB example in my last post) - comparing it with the oasis or accidental firemaking/fletching it won't be too off even in 2022.

Generally just compare something like TGOP with the new guardians minigame from OS - it has so much more polished gameplay, it has decent (they're not even good in OS terms, but it doesn't feel like a total waste of time) experience rates, it has good rewards. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

02-Oct-2022 08:49:13

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Taking an evaluation of existing minigames (I won't touch solo based stuff for that or things like barrows, which by no means would be minigames by any modern definition):

- BA: Make it more accessible, add relevant uniques, add something for money making, rather than just experience
- CW: Drastically reduce amounts of games needed for the game capes - 50/250/500 are more than reasonable despite still needing a lot of effort, drastically reduce costs for items (around a factor of 2-10 depending on item)
- Clan wars: Since it does not lock anything, it can stay as an organized arena, remove the red portal though
- Conquest: It does no damage by being there - it doesn't lock the trimmed comp anymore and there are no unique rewards, also isn't broken. Maybe-ish the spotlight rotation could include both it and PC at the same time.
- DM: Some mechanical changes needed
- FoG: Allow games to be started with 2 players, rather than 4.
- PC: No changes needed
- SW: Cull and move rewards to CW
- Fight Pit: Cull and move minigame body to DM
- Blast Furnace: Mechanical improvements and move it below Artisans Workshop, re-define it as an activity.
- Trawler: Cull and move rewards to other fishing activities Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

02-Oct-2022 08:49:18 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2022 09:10:16 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

- FPF: No changes needed
- TGoP: Consider culling and moving rewards to runespan OR drastically increase currency gain, add tangible experience rewards, unify currency with Runespan (with TGoP being a much faster option).
- TB: Let it evolve into a general purpose skilling area.
- Shades: Temple remains repaired following the quest, just focus on the catacombs themselves. (Basically also evolving it into a general purpose skilling area for combat, firemaking and prayer)
- SC: Consider culling and moving rewards to other minigames, otherwise mechanical fixes and new rewards
- Games Room: Likewise for clan wars. It doesn't hurt by being there.
- Cabbage Facepunch: Get rid of team gorilla. Consider adding new rewards.
- Heist: Mechanical fixes and actual rewards for once.

I think that's all - as said solo stuff doesn't hurt by being there, albeit they also often needed mechanical and reward-wise improvements. If something is really broken, it also could be culled.

In general I still think it's better to preserve a unique combination of mechanics, while slowly fixing the flaws they have over time (it's just so often just a crappy implementation from that time - content from let's say 2016 doesn't feel as bad in 2022, as 2006 stuff did in 2012), rather than just extremely similiar games. Nothing would be lost if they were to cull SW and give the stuff it has to CW - this pseudo slaying included just is not worth keeping. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

02-Oct-2022 08:49:23 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2022 09:43:47 by Rikornak

Aug

2013

Jeremy Cheng

Posts: 25,647 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Agreed. Hopefully in the future rewards are distributed throughout various content but earning them in the original minigame still rewards it faster, maybe even has a minigame currency perk such as void bought for commendations has a small armour boost over getting it as a reward from content outside of pc.

02-Oct-2022 09:02:58

Sep

2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Jack Flac said :
Fuck no. Look, just because Jagex doesn't want to put in effort to build community in this game, Doesn't mean we should be stripping down community content to the point where there would be no reason ever to play it.

Look, they don't need to rebrand, or rework, or anything like that. They just need to make them more accessible to the community at large. Thats all they need. Lower amounts needed to start games, allow Ironmen to buy all minigame reward items. Why would ironmen play if theres no rewards for them. Add in some tradable consumable rewards to things like castle wars. I mean Pest Control has them, why not Castle Wars. And upgrade Pest Control with higher tiers of tradable rewards. Wheres our Torstol, out 99-120 herb packs?

It's inaccessibility to the community, and lack of rewards at large that is the problem. Work on getting us a global chat already Jagex. Upgrade the grouping system to something more usable. Things like this will help the rest of the game. Stop with pvm for a bit, and focus on the community.
This is reasonable, though I should stress that several minigames do need updates direly. Not necessarily full reworks, but updated/new rewards and mechanical changes. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.

— Zanik

02-Oct-2022 10:23:26

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