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PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith

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H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
When reading the new roadmap (which the existence of said roadmap alone was exciting to begin with, good job, Jagex.) there was much to be pleased with. Skilling stations, a new Elite Dungeon and powerful foe, and a proposed rework of the Wilderness were listed as big ticket updates to expect this year. The last one though - the Wilderness rework - only came with a single textual visual to give players - PvM focused, Opt-in PvP

Starting with a realistic understanding of the Wilderness as an arena for players to fight one another in 2022 over here in RuneScape 3 - .... there really isn't much Edgeville pking or roaming clans colliding in multi-combat areas at all these days - and much of the fighting that does take place between players involve assailants chasing players who were engaging in Slayer, battles with the Chaos Elemental, or various skilling locations located north of the Wilderness wall. The Pker is really only compensated if the skiller was geared for fighting certain monsters -or- if they were carrying a Demonic Skull (more on that along with other content later), which would materialize into a cool 500k for the killer. The skiller, who is often portrayed at their most disinterested in PvP content as some no-itemer with a clue and a spade braving the elements in fleeting moments, dreading the whole experience, is left with bitter feelings toward their killer and in many instances a desire to decry the entire PvP community that remains on this side of RuneScape as low-life griefers - fueling animosity toward a group who sadly, has seemingly been ignored and neglected as the years have passed and the ratio of updates favor skillers and PvMers.

I will happily acknowledge that there is an endless possibility for Wilderness content that has never existed before in a Wilderness that allows players to 'opt-OUT' of PvP while in the area. However, there are measures that need to be taken so that PvPers are put at ease.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 06:29:46

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
First and foremost - Jagex needs to make a commitment to PvP as a company, not just over in Old School RuneScape.

One of the major points of -this- version of RuneScape's history was a massive poll that brought back the Wilderness prior to 2008 and the removal of trade limits. There are caveats - some players may have only wanted Free Trade back, and many of the voters are probably Old School players or have lapsed for a while now, but that poll is incredibly noteworthy because it was a time Jagex as a company asked players how it felt about PvP content in what would eventually become RuneScape 3.

While we have seen game-modes such as Deathmatch be released more recently, the PvP of RuneScape 3 is limited to Clan Wars on only a single world (maybe), flashpoint fights during Wilderness Warbands hours (which like Demonic Skulls will be addressed later), and -ocassionally- some mini games when they are on spotlight.

On the other hand, this year has already been a net negative for PvP in RuneScape, as the Duel Arena was removed (by absolute necessity) - and there is risk that allowing players to opt out of PvP in the Wilderness will only further reduce the amount of PvP that takes place in the game. Especially PvP that features any kind of reward.

To fix this, Jagex needs to be willing to put in some serious hours on expanding upon the current combat system, which already has different effects on certain abilities in PvP situations , facilitating PvP engagement with new content, committing to fixing PvP mini games so that they are desirable to play, and introducing new rewards for players who are skilled at the art of killing other players.

This would be seen as an ample trade for continuing to neuter and remove PvP content from the game from players that have held on to playing the content even as the general interest has waned. There is no reason to make RuneScape a worse experience for any particular part of the player base.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 06:43:55 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2022 07:46:33 by H 1 L D A

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Second, There shouldn't be any Wilderness content removed, but some of it -MUST- require PvP to be opted-in in order to access it.

This is because the content is designed around certain aspects of a Wilderness where the primary danger is another player or group of players, and instead of RNG or programming the whims of the players involved and their tenacity, cunning, and skill are what should be anticipated by the player when they take on the risk of the area.

Examples are Wilderness Warbands (which explicitly brings players together in the Wilderness in order to encourage fights - a measure that does in fact find success to this day), the Hellfire Bow (a very powerful weapon that cannot be taken south of the Wilderness wall, and also alerts other players in the Wilderness of the wielder's whereabouts as it's primary gimmick), the Demonic Skull - (a pocket slot item valued at 500k when looted that makes the Wilderness more dangerous for the wielder at the exchange for various skilling benefits.), and Cursed Energy - (divination resources native to the Wildernessthat can be converted to other types of divination resources, but prevent the player from teleporting and also increase the relative danger other players pose to the diviner.)

Other pieces of content, such as Lava Strykewyrms , may need to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

And finally, other pieces of content, such as Chaos Altar , or Charming Moths - probably are good to leave in both the PvP Wilderness as well as it's Opt-Out counterpart.

It goes without saying, but Wilderness Clue Steps should not require the treasure trail hunter to opt-in to PvP in order to complete the step, unless changes are made to Treasure Trails to increase reward potential for completing a clue step in a dangerous PvP situation willingly in the future. Even in that instance, the baseline should at least provide more freedom to treasure hunters.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 07:03:18 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2022 07:51:16 by H 1 L D A

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lastly, This update will generally be received much better with constant dialogue between players and the development team in the months leading up to it.

We found out from the Q&A with Mod Keeper that the Wilderness is intended to still retain its sense of danger and isn't going to be revitalized as a serene, green, hub. With something as big and as historic as RuneScape's Wilderness, this kind of dialogue as development takes place on such an update, much like what happened with Mod Iroh and the Player Avatar updates before Iroh left Jagex, would allow players to get a sense of what's coming.

In the spirit of that former poll that brought PvP back to the expansive area in question, polling players on the kinds of things they would like to see added under the expectation that PvP be opted-in or things that would fundamentally change pieces of content that revolved around PvP as the primary danger would alleviate some of the headaches of releasing content that could lead to serious problems.

Such problems that could arise are a massive devaluing of Ancient Warriors' items, Cursed Energy, Strykewyrm drops, and the like, or an influx of botting after the threat of Pkers dissipates and the suggested measures of danger potentially end up avoidable and predictable. Another problem that may arise is that without player input, the measures that make the Wilderness dangerous are generally more frustrating for players to deal with than Pkers were , which results in the PvP community taking another potentially negative update only for other players to still find the area undesirable to visit anyway - leaving everyone unhappy.

Q&As and polls like the ones we've seen recently from the Retro Override suggestions are a fantastic way to mitigate headache, remain transparent about the proposed change, and allow players input from various communities in game so that Jagex can please as many players as possible.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 07:23:05 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2022 07:47:41 by H 1 L D A

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I appreciate those of you that made it this far - but here's the TL.DR.

1. PvP needs to remain a priority even if the amount of players who engage in that type of content is scarce.

2. Some pieces of content are going to have to require players to opt-in to PvP or else they run several risks of being devalued or farmed with no repercussions.

3. Poll the community on various aspects and keep pumping out Q&A's about the Wilderness specifically - it will maximize the potential for this update to be seen as successful.

Do all three of those things, and the Wilderness Rebirth has a genuine chance of being the best update of the year.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 07:34:53 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2022 07:36:02 by H 1 L D A

StGerolf
Mar Member 2006

StGerolf

Posts: 356 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The problem with the wilderness is that those who can provide profit for the killer (the skiller thus) have no defence againt the killer. If you want more skillers, you need to give them a possibility to escape intact with their earned property. If the skiller can escape in 2/3 of the encounters, more skillers will take the time to go to the wilderness. Now you can easely skill outside with no one stealing your hard work.

28-Apr-2022 13:43:11

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
StGerolf said :
If you want more skillers, you need to give them a possibility to escape intact with their earned property. If the skiller can escape in 2/3 of the encounters, more skillers will take the time to go to the wilderness. Now you can easely skill outside with no one stealing your hard work.

...and I absolutely agree here.

There's a myriad of reasons the Wilderness remains a viable PvP-enabled part of the map in Old School RuneScape. You obviously have a larger, more regularly nourished PvP community there, but there are also measures taken to prevent genuine concerns that would be shared by players with no desire to engage in PvP content ideally - especially dubious methods of getting loot such as skull tricking and luring - but there have also been measures taken to ensure players are able to either escape or fight back. The issues non-PvPers have actually are shared across both games!

Here's a couple ideas of what I think would help skillers in RuneScape 3's Wilderness.

1. Adress skull tricking - especially if there -will- be content that requires players to still brave PvP as a possibility.

2. Either allow movement abilities (Surge/Escape) other than Bladed Dive to be unlocked at the start of a player's account's lifetime, or move the abilities to Agility. This would allow players who are dedicated skillers or players with lower combat levels more ability to escape.

3. Introduce an "Invulnerability" potion , made with Wilderness resources, which would negate damage/stuns/bleeds/etc. coming in from other players for up to 30 seconds to a minute at the cost of preventing the drinker from retaliating. This would absolutely not disable combat, but it would allow the drinker to escape so long as sips were available. Ther would also need to be a 10-15 second cooldown.

4. Largely important, fix abilities in PvP to allow for retaliation.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 16:36:01

Eliuaustin

Eliuaustin

Posts: 63 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Good points.

I agree that the new update will do best if it finds a way to actually encourage healthy pvp and disincentivize the negative elements (like luring and skull tricking that you mentioned). Definitely hoping it’s not just a blanket option to disable pvp.

I think your point about updating/balancing abilities for pvp is especially important. One thing about players who enjoy pvp is that they have a different worldview (gameview?) than most other players. It’s not really about the rewards (although a juicy pk is always a dopamine rush). PKers really just want to feel like they dominated the other player, that they were the better fighter. Since EoC, learning to pk became much harder as the ability system is complicated enough against a consistent computer enemy, but very hard against reactive humans.. especially those with more experience.

So if you want to learn to pk, right now in RS3 it is a fairly large time commitment and you will likely lose almost all the time at first. Simplifying the combat system as it relates to PVP can help potential new players overcome that hurdle and get a few confidence-boosting wins as they learn. This is why pvp is most popular in F2P: There is less to think about and BiS gear is super cheap.
Soli Deo Gloria

28-Apr-2022 20:30:17

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Eliuaustin said :
One thing about players who enjoy pvp is that they have a different worldview (gameview?) than most other players. It’s not really about the rewards. PKers really just want to feel like they dominated the other player, that they were the better fighter. Since EoC, learning to pk became much harder as the ability system is complicated enough against a computer, but very hard against reactive humans.. especially those with more experience.

Simplifying the combat system as it relates to PVP can help potential new players overcome that hurdle and get a few confidence-boosting wins as they learn.

Absolutely.

I think one way Jagex can act in good faith with the PvP community - while leaning into fostering it among current and new Rs3 players as you suggest here - is to make content that introduces safe PvP and dedicate either the Ninja Team or someone else to routinely look at existing safe PvP locations to either incentivize participation or use the experience to teach the player about how abilities are used in PvP.

OSRS has a game made called Last Man Standing , which provides players with rewards by placing them in mock PvP instances. They are also introducing a matchmaking system of PvP known as the PvP Arena to replace the Duel Arena. Introducing competitive PvP matchmaking in Rs3 is a way to foster interest in PvP because it's fresh content, and highlights skill.

There are difficulties of course. One of the biggest issues with RuneScape 3 and PvP is the domineering presence of "tierscape" - where a player's gear is typically all sitting in the same level tier as opposed to Old School's gear which is mixed and matched to maximize things like Strength bonus or Prayer bonus in order to provide particular specification when it comes to max hit or ability to keep prayer up.

There should be PvP benefits to lower tiers of gear. This makes PvP less costly and more various.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 23:37:36 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2022 23:40:27 by H 1 L D A

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(cont.)

Another idea that could further incentivize PKers or players who are used to Pre-EOC combat is to offer certain passive buffs to players familiar with Legacy Combat - which for some in the remaining RS3 PvP community is still the preferred way to engage in combat in any scenario, at the very least encouraging players to use Legacy Combat when fighting one another and saving the tick manipulation and anticipation for a more classic RuneScape PvP experience.

The reward itself could perhaps make Legacy Combat players less of an absolute leech in RS3 PvM scenarios, but the buff would have to be earned by playing PvP mini games such as the ones that already exist (Castle/Clan Wars, Stealing Creation through PvP, Fist of Guthix), or new mini games like a matchmaking system that allows players to fight for ranking and reward using various specification (of which Legacy would of course be offered.)

Speaking of rewards through safe PvP, this is also a great opportunity to introduce other completely new ability codices , itemized momentary skilling and PvM passive buffs , Gold, and other desirable rewards such as items you could find at the Traveling Merchant .

I wouldn't know if all of those things would be tradeable or not, that would be an excellent opportunity for a poll, but these kinds of rewards are cognizant of the -average- RS3 player, and may persuade players to try out PvP without the fear of death costs or lost gear while still contributing to their original goals. Part of the problem with the PvP scene is that Jagex has allowed much of the game to pass it by, but it's not too late to get reacquainted - especially when this game's sister game still very much receives regular PvP feedback and acts accordingly.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
- July 31st, 2022

28-Apr-2022 23:58:34

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