RuneScape Forum Archive | PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith

I am Test

Posts: 940 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

H 1 L D A said :

At the very least, we can agree that Jagex should communicate with us on how this update drops - yes?

I'm sure they will in due time. Full year roadmaps are just that, rough ideas on where we're heading over that timeframe. They're rarely perfectly fleshed out from the start on. Jagex might not yet know the details of the opt-in mechanism themselves yet. They just identified the need for such a feature, there's probably lots of meetings ahead of them before they (and we) will know exactly how things work. Up till then, everything is just speculation.

01-May-2022 22:05:36

Nov

2011

Hispid Gnome

Posts: 1,115 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

another thing I would like to see looked at if this wilderness reborn does lead to a look at PvP in general.
Combat levels. I assume you are level 138 the same as me so we are considered correctly the same combat level, but if I was wearing serenic and wielding a noxious bow and you were wearing cryptbloom and wielding a fractured staff of armadyl we would still be considered wrongly the same level. I think if this was addressed it could actually make for some interesting builds and loadouts. While on the subject, do you remember world event two!? (I think it was two) the one with the safe PvP around a good chunk of the F2P area of the map. Anyway it had damage scaling. I found this to be a really fun concept. Possibly because at the time I was still using my 1def range pure with zaryte bow. Boy that was fun! I was dangerous and that's the only time I've ever been able to say that about my pure since eoc came out. I do think the damage scaling went a bit too far that time but I did enjoy the concept and I was wondering on your thoughts on bringing some sort of damage scaling into matching up players. It can't be to the point that you gain an advantage wearing cheap gear but would be nice if newer players to pvp weren't owned in seconds.

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

02-May-2022 18:18:52

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@ShallPreval

Absolutely agree. Minigames do have their own set of problems - namely that even the distraction and diversions and games with fcs that facilitate the environment of the games to prevent PvP from taking place in them (Stealing Creation) are typically done momentarily in order to achieve some benefit for their account's progress.

However, if we can spotlight how the combat system (which Mod Keeper himself claims not to fully grasp and claims is one of his least favorite parts of the RuneScape experience!) doesn't work well for PvP scenarios in general, perhaps the pace of those games become more manageable for players to work with.

@Hispid Gnome

I don't know that I'm following you very well here.

I am also 138 combat - so in the hypothetical situation you propose, the difference between our gear isn't going to affect either of our combat levels, but if I'm wearing Cryptbloom, the advantage that has over Sirenic in spite of being trumped in the combat triangle is that Cryptbloom is tank gear that also happens to have its own unique secondary effects. On top of that, because Cryptbloom is tank gear, it qualifies as armor that can allow the player to cast the Animate Dead spell - which in PvP situations is explicitly capped at 50% percent damage reduction.

Cryptbloom is absolutely cracked gear - but not to the point where it implicitly gives its wielder an unfair advantage, and even when stacked with Animate Dead, it does seem like Jagex has had the foresight already to try and mitigate the amount of tanking prowess it provides when fighting other players as a measure of fairness. Gear has to some degree always been a degree of separation between Pkers... which I think could make for an interesting transition to my next suggestion...

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

03-May-2022 02:21:24

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I did some digging into the PvP Arena update that Old School is working on. In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned one of the rewards of the new activity being a set of gear that reminded me of Pest Control gear.

It's a little deeper than that actually, and it can be helpful in mitigating some of the real issues the RuneScape 3 PvP scene is facing when it comes to having a breathing, sustainable future.

Here's some of the rewards on offer.

A set of wristbands that have the same stats as Barrows Gloves, which can be imbued for accuracy benefits - and only need 20 defence to be worn. These items allow PvP-focused players to avoid having to go through the Recipe for Disaster grind just to PK. (These gloves, and the following items I will list here, are ONLY useable in PvP situations.)

A body armor that has the same stats as the Fighter Torso - removing the need for PvP-focused players to have to play multiple rounds of Barbarian Assault just to PK on a Zerker build.

One set of robes and three helmets for the various combat styles that would allow PvP-focused players to avoid the Pest Control grind. This gear can be upgraded, much like Pest Control can to provide better stats, as the player levels up.

An important trait to know about this gear is that dying with the gear breaks it as it behaves like an untradeable, rewarding killers with coins, while the ones killed must go to the Arena to repair it.
---

Barrows Gloves are perhaps the only armor piece in RS3 that sees any value - as a med-level player's glove slot before getting the ability to craft hydrix jewelry or securing drops from higher end slayer monsters and bosses. However, the concept of having PvP only gear is something RS3 can use.

It can do this in order to mimic the mix-and-match stats of old without affecting existing gear -or- could be set up in a manner that tierscape is able to accommodate. This is another possible fix for gear.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

03-May-2022 02:37:56

Nov

2011

Hispid Gnome

Posts: 1,115 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Hilda what I was thinking out loud about was do you think we need to look at the difference between levels and gear in a PvP situation. In the same way that abilities we use in PvP are just the normal abilities designed for PvM watered down. What about how much power creep have come into the game due to PvMers being able to take on top T bosses!?

So now as we level up and gear up there are massive jumps between Tiers. I'm wondering if for PvP it might be an idea to close the gaps between Tiers? So higher T players with higher T gear will still have an advantage but not as much of an advantage and would this lead onto different builds rather than everyone being maxed in top gear or not standing a chance!?

Also on a 'whole game' view if they were to close the gaps between T's would older weapons and armour become more use in PvP allowing a boost to the PvM economy in a similar way invention and the EOF have increased the value of older items!?

Just a thought... if they are going to look at PvP shouldn't they look at this too for the sake of balance!?

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

03-May-2022 17:28:28

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Hispid Gnome

Ah, okay, I think I'm starting to get it.

Both RS3 and Old School have had a bit of a situation where their players have perhaps 'aged out' of PvP being a simply enjoyable activity where the fun alone was worth engaging in it.

The reason that pertains to gear - is that it has resulted in gear in both games being inherently designed to make farming high tier bosses more efficient and thus more rewarding as opposed to being better to use in a PvP situation. In RuneScape 3, the problem is further laid bare by a combat level system (and this is perhaps something you were trying to get at earlier) that has absolutely made making builds for PvP incredibly less variable outside of Pking on a main account.

Now, I feel like changing the requirements on some items to allow accounts like Pures or Zerkers the ability to re-equip gear they used to would be nice in theory but horrible in execution for some reason.

I think Tierscape, and thus a lack of pure accounts, is here to stay unless Jagex is willing to rethink combat levels in the future again. In the meantime though - I would wholeheartedly encourage Jagex to consider providing benefits to various pieces of forgotten gear around the game that would make it worth using really in multiple situations below t80.

Imagine if the Helm of Neitiznot had a passive that double health regeneration when worn, or would make adrenaline recover faster. Perhaps you can take gear ranging from Rune to Barrows to an NPC to provide modern passives. D'hide sets could perhaps have a random chance to negate a magic attack/ability, increased a bit if dealing with God D'hide, and so on and so forth.

If the community feels they need to bring best in slot gear in order to PK effectively - and best in slot is as super expensive as it is currently, it's no wonder they never risk it in the Wild.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

05-May-2022 03:25:46

Jul

2011

Da Dope Pope

Posts: 1,377 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I do not believe I have actually pk'd a skiller since pre-eoc.

Mb i take that back, I afk checked 1 way 2 hard.

In all seriousness "measures that need to be taken so that PvPers are put at ease."

Should, could, and def won't by Jagex is either actually making an attempt, nvm it's all been said b4.

You've created a well-written thread, alot of thought into it. But when the chips are down and you've crossed the ditch, at anytime time ticking off a box to "opt-in or opt-out of pk"

That aint the wildy, and every1 damn well knows it.

Regardless of what Jagex does/doesnt/shelves into oblivion.

It would be, just be sweet for them to just be honest and say they never actually were able to meld eoc mechanics into pk'n or ever really dedicated a dev team for pk'n. That they hit the ground running full steam ahead for pvm and never looked back.

Que sera sera

Pardon me Hilda for shantying up ur thread.

Have a gr8 day

05-May-2022 16:31:51

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Knight of Ka

Que sera sera? Si.

Personally, I completely agree with you when it comes to the Wilderness losing pretty much of what made it what is the moment other players are no longer a threat to you, and I also hold significant reservation (given that Revenants were not really all that threatening in comparison in the past) that whatever Jagex does introduce to replace those other players will flop in comparison.

However, I don't believe Pkers and or old-timers who have always dealt with the Wilderness as a place to dodge Pkers are in the majority, nor will they be on the day this update is released. It's possible the people that voice their frustration with PvPers loudly are in the minority, but due to the decline of a PvP community that has accompanied such vilifying, I believe this is set up to be a successful update for Jagex regardless of whether or not PvP is left behind.

One of my goals is to improve visibility to the PvP community in Rs3 - so it genuinely does help to see people providing dissent as you have even if you stopped only by because you grew accustomed to the current Wilderness and didn't outright avoid it. If there isn't a PvP community voicing their frustration with Jagex when it comes to being neglected - then there isn't any reason Jagex should worry about the PvP community when it comes to updates at all.

In fairness to Jagex, there has been a handful of regime changes and whatnot since 2007's conclusion and subsequent initial breach of trust between the community and the company. This is a whole new gig for the new EP. There's hope people are heard on the PvP front - but part of the game is rallying support.

That can be difficult when Old School's existence is a powerful bastion of competition within the company and new players are basically introduced to a very dead PvP scene, to be sure. Updates and support are big needs.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

06-May-2022 03:16:43 - Last edited on 06-May-2022 09:28:45 by H 1 L D A

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

(cont.)

I've been doing some more thinking about what makes the current Wilderness - in both games to be honest - work even though the player activity doesn't seem to suggest it does. It's important for people to understand the rationale on both sides when we talk about an update like this.

The current Wilderness it at its best when player activity is centralized (think Edgeville back in the earlier days of the Wilderness, in PvP worlds later, and when the Wilderness returned Pre-EoC, as well as fights at Wilderness Warbands today) where Pkers are actively fighting one another - and the rest of the Wilderness appears to be dead even around the location of precious resources throughout the most of the day.

If you were to think about it, this makes sense. Skillers are not going to take the risk of getting killed when the reality is the location in question is deemed too hot. Examples of this are lava strykewryms or the Chaos Elemental, because the PvM encounters here are unique, assigned by NPCs with varying degrees of lacking alternatives, and involve items necessary for drop logs - which is the point when players are effectively forced to engage in fighting them. ... It's for this reason I think those encounters are at the very least debatable when it comes to whether or not you should have to opt in to PvP to engage with them.

At the same time, you need content in the Wilderness that is valuable enough to prevent it from not being viably attractive to skillers - because the area being too cold will prevent the intended risk factor, Pkers, to be drawn out due to the fact that there is nobody to kill.

This is the extremely delicate balance that the Wilderness has managed to uphold for many years. And with the right incentivizing, making the Wilderness opt-in may allow more players to enter the Wilderness, while the daring skill while drawing Pkers to these spots with more spectacle. That's GREAT.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

06-May-2022 08:37:52 - Last edited on 06-May-2022 08:42:27 by H 1 L D A

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

For now, we're going to need to wait to see what details eventually coming out on this.
You don't know if the "opt in" does anything to limit a player such as not being able to participate in Warbands or being able to use the Demonic skull.
Or if the current drops etc become a "base" but if a player opts in, then there is an INCREASE to xp, rewards, etc.

But this is all speculation.

Part of it with the PvP community as you call it is that many of them disappeared when the Wilderness/Free Trade removal occurred 15 years ago.
The community never really came back.

So you're in the minority now.

Devs like Mod Pi have tried to cater to the PvP community.
You had Deathmatch or Slayer Bounties and a few other PvP activities that took place in the Wildy.
Their original effort with the Wilderness Graphical update and added content (ie: Cursed Energy, Demonic Skull).

the simple truth is that while there are players that support PvP being around, you don't have many taking part in it.
Not too unlike when a vote is happening somewhere over something, not enough people turn out, and then one side complains about not getting their way when they lost 51-49% but had a less than 40% voter turnout.
Or when a sports team that is doing well for a season but can't get fans to show up at their stadium.

So you have a situation where devs dump dev time and resources in trying to "fix" something, but no one sticks around.
I point to the 2014 rework of Barbarian Assault. Massive graphical update, lots of rewards, a hard mode, etc.
Deathmatch for the Obliteration, etc weapons didn't even last a day after launch before players abandoned it except for the ones that used bots to boost to get the rewards.

07-May-2022 17:14:59

Forums

PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith