RuneScape Forum Archive | PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith

Deltaslug

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I know you're going to defend your view point.
But look at how players are actually playing RS3.
You have one group of players with a bias against PvP in general.
You have one group of players that see it as "XP waste"
You have one group of players that are ok with it being around but don't participate in it themselves.

That removes a lot of potential activity.

Finally, look at the number of players in game.

I can understand why the devs aren't wanting to go all-in on some type of rework to maybe hopefully save an element of gameplay that most players aren't doing.

07-May-2022 17:17:14

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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@Deltaslug.

You're pretty much right on all marks.

1. The PvP community needs to make itself known... - which is a goal of mine with this thread, because in a year where the Duel Arena was removed for more skilling content, following years where the most significant content released were things like Deathmatch or Slayer Bounties which focused on simply trying to make PvP rewarding alone , Jagex should know if or if they aren't further taking away content from this group by making the Wilderness PvP opt-out. The Pkers (or supporters of PvP, perhaps, as you've pointed out) that have shown up to this thread have certainly voiced a major cause of dissent when it comes to participation...

2. The Evolution of Combat has yet to have been fine-tuned with PvP in mind from top to bottom. - I have tried to point out where Jagex has released abilities and armor effects that function at reduced percentages or slightly differently in PvP scenarios, but it can be argued that most abilities and effects are balanced with PvM in mind. This is most present in the satisfaction players receive when using certain abilities to slay bosses that are designed around the system itself. If you were to ask a Pker that for whatever reason is in this game, the EoC needs to be looked at more comprehensively. It's clear Legacy Combat doesn't compete, especially when Jagex has already segregated its Legacy community with an entirely separate game in Old School from the jump.

3. PvP, like PvM, requires relentless oversight in order to be balanced and in order for players to remain engaged. Throwing in a mini-game or retroactively shoving an emblem system into Slayer isn't going to be nearly enough work on Jagex' part to facilitate a PvP community. Old School's staff routinely tweak, balance, update, and tweak and balance again on behalf of its PvP community even if substantive updates are lacking or held up by polling.

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Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

07-May-2022 22:50:26

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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(cont.)

I really like Wilderness Slayer Bounties, Warbands, and other concepts in this game already. Even though PvP itself is now an near-extinct phenomenon, those activities manage to at least provide potential for legitimate PvP interaction to occur. Emblems provide genuine slayer experience incentive to try and learn how to anti-Pk, because while a Pker may make a Wilderness slayer task cumbersome, dispatching them can further their Slayer gains. Warbands encourages players to converge upon one another. Demonic Skulls either result in the wielder getting better experience gains with a slight thrill for their daring, or Pkers making money after finding and successfully defeating them.

Even if people aren't always hunting people utilizing these pieces of content, the content still works like it is supposed to - and there might be more hunters if the combat system was given a proper once-over with PvP in mind.

Now, with regards to today's current player base, there's other things that would open up the Wilderness to possibility. Archaeology is a fantastic example of a skill that you would 100% not want to be PK'ed while training - and the ruins of Forinthry is a fantastic place for such a skill to be trained in relative safety.

This is the one positive I think the Wilderness being opt-in can bring. Exposure. Imagine training a skill with a group of players in the Wilderness and one of you is training while opted-in to PvP (Ideally with some kind of benefit for doing so) - and a Pker stumbles upon the group of people who are mostly unattackable.

They find the odd-one-out and attack them - but wait, because there's a group of players skilling with one another, word gets out the a Pker is nearby and now anti-Pkers are on the scene.

It's basically Warbands - except this time, it's not time-gated and the players that are involved shouldn't have any qualms with the situation.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

07-May-2022 23:07:03

Mar

2008

Pachuli714

Posts: 4,549 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

All of the things discussed in this thread, including all of the many things that currently exist in OSRS, are all fine and dandy -- for players who CHOOSE to PVP. The real issue here is forcing players to be at the mercy of jerks who insist on PKing anyone they find in Wildy, whether they want to fight another player or not.

Yes, the argument has always been -- if you don't want to fight, don't dare take a step inside Wildy. That's just plain stupid. You put all sorts of skilling attractions there, clue scroll steps even the occasional penguin there to lure non-PKers so they can become fodder for PKers who can't find any other willing participants. That's just crap. For the most part, the PKers "wins" nothing because the skiller is smart enough not to bring anything with them so it's a hollow victory at best and both players just ended up wasting their time. Think that's really fun for anyone?

If a PKer sits in wait at a popular spot for skillers and then pounces on them, how is that really PVP? If the attacked player does not fight back, how is that PVP? Just as you need two to tango or dance, you need two to fight and both must be willing to do so. Otherwise, it's just bullying and griefing and there's just no other way to view it.

The opt-in must be absolute. If you choose NOT to PVP, no activity available in Wildy should be excluded from the player. From revenants to agility, skilling locations to slayer tasks, nothing should be out of their reach simply because they chose not to PVP. You cannot put strings, attachments or conditions on the opt-in. It would not be fair and if done that way, you can be sure that absolutely nothing would change. Players would still avoid Wildy like the plague or enter it with nothing equipped giving their greifers nothing to fight for. In short, we'd have the same damn situation as we do now.

Please stop treating all players as if they were the same and play the game the same way. We don't all love killing bosses or PVP.

11-May-2022 08:41:25

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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Hi Pachuli! Before we continue, I do want to thank you for stopping by and let you know that I do believe your viewpoint is substantive. Yes, we're about to disagree on some things, but that's what proper discourse is for!

Where we -do- agree though - Clue Scroll Steps shouldn't be limited to players who opt-out of PvP. Even in the event that increased reward potential exists for those that opt-in, players no longer have to drop the clue step for fear of being Pked. That's a substantial improvement.

---

I think your main point might have been that skilling and earning opportunities mustn't be excluded from players that choose to opt-out.

I think that depends on the content. Your examples were agility, which without a Demonic Skull in the player's possession I absolutely agree with, skilling locations, which would probably follow the same agreement as the agility course in that unless rates are boosted by a Demonic skull that should be fine, and Slayer, which I also believe should be alright with the exception of if the player has a Demonic Skull or an emblem on them.

The Demonic Skull itself is a 500k risk that players very knowingly take with them. That risk loses pretty much all of its value if you can't be Pked anymore, and if Jagex were to remove the item you have less people wanting to skill in the Wilderness than you do now becuase they've lost their xp-scaling or boosted rates. (They won't keep the skull in game with no risk factor.) That, and experience gained from Wilderness Warbands, are heavily reliant on there being a threat posed by players who are enticed by the reward one would get from killing those who engage with those pieces of content.

Lava Strykewryms, Chaos Elemental, and Revenants have varying degrees of case-by-case consideration that should take place regarding the game's economy, potential for botting, etc. Elly is probably fine, whereas Revs are an achievement and Lavas would cause searing ashes to crash.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

11-May-2022 21:57:33

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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(cont.)

Essentially - the content having or not having PvP opt-in shouldn't be about exclusivity or fairness, but it should encourage players to follow what the spirit of the wilderness has always been about. Risk vs. Reward.

On the point of fairness though - I feel like the people who tell people not to go into the Wilderness unless they are wanting a fight is just poor advice in general. When engaging with content in the wilderness - whether or not the person wants to engage in PvP shouldn't be the question. It should be about whether or not there are safer in-game alternatives, or whether or not the player has the ability to run away and stay alive when a Pker arrives at the very least (scoring an anti-Pk is just icing on the cake!)

Take a classic episode of 'Tom and Jerry' for example. Usually, the plot of most episodes involves Jerry - a mouse - outsmarting his hunter, Tom - a cat. While sometimes Jerry does "fight back" - most of the time he is fleeing Tom. Jerry making a fool out of Tom in the art of escape is the essence of enjoyment of the show.

...and it can just as easily apply to a skiller embarrassing a would-be Pker. And it's here where I disagree that the Wilderness isn't enjoyable for skillers. Some of us really do like going to the Wilderness and making out like a bandit when a Pker fails to kill us. There's a genuine thrill to successfully entering the Wilderness and accomplishing whatever non-PvP task you have there, especially if it does involve actual danger and it was avoided.

Pkers on the other hand aren't -always- out there to cause trouble either. If a skiller is holding a Demonic Skull and they find them - it's a free 500k. If a skiller is no-iteming, that doesn't mean they aren't carrying loot at all, so there's always potential profit from a kill, even if it isn't being made readily visible (after all, no-iteming is a defense mechanism in itself!)

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

11-May-2022 22:39:37

Apr

2020

H 1 L D A

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(cont... last one, Pachuli, I promise! Thank you for reading this far.)

Finally, we get to where we have to address what the Wilderness is and what Jagex may want it to be in the future in regards to this update.

It is not what the Duel Arena was, or Clan Wars, or the ability to Duel anywhere in the game, or Castle Wars or any other mini-game where PvP is the focus of the content.

The Wilderness is an area of the map filled with monsters, resources, and events that just so happens to be an area where players can attack one another and acquire the items from the person they kill. That kind of lawlessness plays into the area's lore and mystique in-universe, and it differs from the above in that it most certainly isn't simply a construct for players to hold fair fights with one another. So why would players engage with the content then if everywhere else is safer? Reward.

It's why Warbands is one of the most effective ways to gain experience in Farming (a skill that is often time-gated), Herblore, or Construction (skills that are heavily reliant on the player's cash stack otherwise.) It's why players don any Brawling Gloves they receive for boosted XP. It's why players choose to pick up the Hellfire Bow even though the bow literally tells the rest of the Wilderness where you are.

If your fear is that Jagex will have "exceptions" or "advantages" to opting-in to PvP - they're doing it to encourage that very same feeling of thrill for players who are willing to brave the risk their fellow players pose, as well as prevent yet another place where players CAN fight one another from losing what remaining clientele it has left while making a change that would make other players very happy.

Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed

- July 31st, 2022

11-May-2022 22:53:07

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

We're also back to the unknown of the added details/changes Jagex might do in response to these points.

I wouldn't be stunned if the Demonic Skull and Warbands were unavailable if you don't opt in.
You'd basically be looking at the mechanics of Ironman accounts as a precedent.

At the same time, devs may simply nerf Warbands and Brawlers.
Brawlers might just be a base 50% increase (no wildy buff)
And Warbands has been OP for ages, and with requests to reduce dailyscape, they just might make it change from an "every 7 hours" to a daily, weekly, or even monthly D&D.

There might also be a case of "we'll see what the data shows".
They might not make any substantial changes to any content ...
But .... they may also wait a while to see just how many players ever bother to "opt in".

If you only have a dozen unique players that have opt in 100% of the time, and a 100 players opting in part time, they might just ignore making any changes.

12-May-2022 02:06:49

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

tbh, they don't need to do anything about stuff like Rev drops or Wildywyrms/Lava Strykes.
Wildywyrm is still a powerful boss on its own.
Lava strykes can only be fought on slayer task like other stryke wyrms.
On top of that, a lot of the Wildy Drops are no longer top tier ...
Lavawhip etc are only T85. Mandrith's Bounty Slayer are T87.
A lot of stuff is still RNG based.
So you're not really at risk of anything getting too broken with a change to being a more open area.

12-May-2022 02:09:48

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

We also don't know what their replacement risk mechanic is other than it isn't going to be revenants. It probably won't be like the World Event 2 ambushers either (random NPC jumping out of nowhere to attack you).

12-May-2022 02:11:22

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PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith