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PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith

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H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
They should be opt-in only because the activities or items involved are specifically designed to either have players run into each other in the Wilderness to instigate a fight, or provide incentive for skillers who are beyond aware of the increased risk to use the Wilderness skilling areas relative to other content in the game.

With the Hellfire Bow, I would not be upset if it was only used to kill players - but that would be lost content for confident slayers who would pick up the bow, telegraph to the rest of the wilderness player population where they are, and in the face of the gods have the audacity to use it at Lava Strykewryms because its a t95 bow and they could bring cheap gear while wielding it. It would upset even more people if the bow were outright removed.

With Warbands - you're removing one of the most popular PvP-encouraging activities remaining if you do so outright, and you're rendering the Wand of Treachery even more into obscurity (its already fallen precipitously in price) by making it only able to be used against Pkers.

Remove the Demonic Skull, and you're going to make more Runecrafters upset than the Pkers who go after them - It's only helped Abyss Runecrafting stay relevant while the entire skill has languished over the years - not to mention become a viable alternative for Agility or supplementing additional Slayer experience. This item doesn't help a Pker in any way other than serving as loot on targets that normally wouldn't yield any.

Pachuli, you wouldn't have to explain to just me how opt-in benefits are a joke, but you would have to explain to the above players that are affected - many of which are not Pkers.

On the other hand, who is negatively affected by players who are in the future even more aware of the risk of opting-in to PvP and being rewarded for doing so? Inefficiency for opt-outs if horribly unbalanced seems like the only thing I can come up with.
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Maxed
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30-May-2022 23:32:40 - Last edited on 31-May-2022 05:56:43 by H 1 L D A

Pachuli714
Mar Member 2008

Pachuli714

Posts: 4,549 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
H 1 L D A said :


1. PvP needs to remain a priority even if the amount of players who engage in that type of content is scarce.

Could not care less what is added, removed or made especially for PKers as I have absolutely no interest in any of it. I just beg, plead and pray that they stop using skillers and those who are vehemently not interested in PKing as bait for others who can find no one else to kill. If this comes with strings attached as in you can opt-in/out but only for portions of Wildy, I'm out completely.

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2. Some pieces of content are going to have to require players to opt-in to PvP or else they run several risks of being devalued or farmed with no repercussions.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Reduce the better xp from skilling spots. Maybe rework some other things too but requiring player to opt-in anywhere is just not right. We'd still be bait for campers whose sole purpose in life is griefing other players.

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3. Poll the community on various aspects and keep pumping out Q&A's about the Wilderness specifically - it will maximize the potential for this update to be seen as successful.

I place no value on polls whatsoever. Wildy was overwhelming voted for back then and all of the supposed voters just jumped ship and went over to OSRS instead. There is very little interest in PKing currently. I've seen more duels between players in the game than actual PVP in Wildy over the course of several years now. PKers just love camping with no expectation of getting any loot. They're having too much fun killing skillers for zero drops.

If they want to get players using some of that dead content, they have to be serious about opting out of ALL PVP in all areas or nothing will change. Players will continue to avoid it. Period. I know I will if there are any exceptions, conditions or strings to that opt-in choice.

05-Jun-2022 02:22:12

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"I have no interest in PKing."

This is perfectly and completely fine, and as someone who would love to see Jagex make Pking (particularly other players who are also there to Pk) much more enjoyable, I am not saying they shouldn't go through with an update that allows engagement with most (if not all with aforementioned incentives) Wilderness content without a PvP flag enabled. I happen to think having players be able to safely watch other players Pk while doing activities in the Wilderness is a potentially positive step for Pking because it can broaden exposure, particularly with difficulties that Rs3 Pkers that create content struggle with (making it easy to follow or failing to provide commentary along with their videos) regarding the customizable interface.

Old School RuneScape...

Old School RuneScape - and the flight of the old PvP community - doesn't happen without the Evolution of Combat... and I'll be the contrarian here. I think there's just enough legitimate PvP (the duels you mentioned, the videos on YouTube I alluded to above, minigames occasionally) to build a foundation with here in RuneScape 3.

...but you have to address the elephant in the room somewhat thoroughly and exhaustively. Players in this thread in the Pro-PvP camp have stated it here. The EoC has a severe need of a big-time PvP rebalancing if any kind of PvP revival is going to happen in our community.

The better the PvP experience, the more players want to be involved in killing one another, and maybe, just maybe, that relieves some of the issues Skillers face as being kind of the only targets out there in the Wilderness to begin with at times. That, coupled with the fact that most, if not all content will be opt-out accessible anyway, and you have yourself an ideal situation that doesn't encroach on the enjoyment of other players.

Greifing, not coincidentally, takes no actual skill in PvP. They just aren't punished nearly enough as it is.
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05-Jun-2022 22:28:52

Pachuli714
Mar Member 2008

Pachuli714

Posts: 4,549 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Greifing, not coincidentally, takes no actual skill in PvP. They just aren't punished nearly enough as it is.

This is really the only point I wish to address. I think I can speak for most skillers/non-PKers out there. Punished? They've not only haven't been punished in any way, shape or form. They've been encouraged and even provided with unwilling victims long enough.

Real interest in PKing died only partly due to EOC. It really died when players could no longer get actual drops that players left when they died. Rewards sucked and that helped killed PKing, just as it has most minigames. There's zero interest in it because it's not worth the time or effort.

The griefers could care less about making profit. Their sole purpose is life is to kill anyone who doesn't want to fight back. And Jagex has tried repeatedly to make sure they at least have stragglers here and there (mostly from the occasional penguin roaming about Wildy) and they're stunned sometimes by the PKers who choose to hunt them down in order to make it a tiny bit safer for other players.

No game should forcibly shove content down players' throats. Yes, the knee-jerk reaction always is to just avoid it if you don't like it but this was always different because Jagex didn't punish anyone for luring players out there or ambushing them. In fact, they made it enticing by providing content that rewarded more xp or rewards for the risk of getting ganked by other players. And that's fine if you're up for PKing but if you're not, you end up avoiding that content because it's no fun to be ambushed by someone who's just looking to kill you for zero profit.

Griefers are rewarded plenty by annoying the hell out of skillers and Jagex has never punished them. It just gleefully chants the usual mantra: Don't like it, don't go into Wildy.

Now we'll have opt-in and it must be all or nothing or nothing will change.

06-Jun-2022 21:27:05 - Last edited on 06-Jun-2022 21:29:31 by Pachuli714

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"Jagex has provided content that makes it enticing for players to attack skillers, there for skillers universally avoid the content.

Ah, but that's not quite true isn't it? I mean, Wilderness Warbands has various friends chats that people can join, which changes the color of your dot on the minimap so that you can identify friendlies while you're out there looting the tents. Take a stroll in Edgeville and you're somewhat likely to see at least one Abyss runecrafter surging their way through the wall as fast as possible to the Zammy Mage - and many of those folks are actively (and hopefully knowingly) risking upwards of 500k in potential profit via Demonic Skull for an assailant just for better xp.

The idea that players avoid the Wilderness for skilling purposes in totality just doesn't pass the smell test, and in a situation where the skillers themselves would rather the coast be clear as opposed to absolutely crawling with Pkers for the sake of the place "feeling alive" - being in a small plurality is enough to prove that the concept of skilling with risk involved can and does in fact, work.

It's gotta be all or nothing, or nothing will change...

I feel this is a bit pessimistic. What we do know is that the Wilderness will be a more "reasonable" area to do average skilling simply because you can't preyed upon by Pkers who camp hotspots if you've opted out of PvP yourself. Ideally, the Slayer monsters in the Wilderness, including Revenants and potentially even Lava Strykewyrms, will be just as much a viable option with the caveat of braving whatever the unique danger Jagex has in store is.

If you have things like Brawling gloves, it's probably going to be more reasonable than it has ever been since the Bounty Hunter days to do so.

The content that should have restrictions preserves the dynamic that exists between Pkers and Skillers who actively embrace the risk Pkers provide head-on. Warbands, Cursed, and Demonic Skulls.
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Maxed
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07-Jun-2022 01:08:45

Pachuli714
Mar Member 2008

Pachuli714

Posts: 4,549 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Here's the thing though. If Jagex were to remove all skilling from the Wilderness, do you think there would be anyone there at all? Certainly not the PKers because they won't have the Abyss runners to target. Or the Cursed Energy gatherers. Or anyone else.

Right now, the vast majority of players are avoiding Wildy. Of course there are those who could care less and figure the risk is worth it and some of them even fight back. But they are decidedly in the minority. Any others just run in for a penguin or clue scroll step and get out as fast as possible.

My real point in all this was that PKers aren't PKing at all and haven't been for quite a few years now. They're targeting players for the most part who have absolutely no interest in fighting other players. Even the few skillers who defend themselves are doing so to protect their invested work, not to actually engage in combat with another player.

If there are exceptions to the opt-in choice like Slayer tasks, then, no, I still won't go there to do them. There can and should be no exceptions because otherwise they'd still be using Slayer as a means of baiting players who don't want to fight other players into either defending themselves or dying to players who are only there to prey on whomever they can catch.

PKing is dead. The mere act of killing another player, particularly one who isn't fighting back and has no interest in doing so, is disgraceful and bad sportsmanship. And very much encouraged by Jagex, hence all of the skilling points set in Wildy along with nearly every week at least one, if not two, penguins thrown up there as well.

PKing must be entirely voluntary. No one should be allowed to kill another player under any circumstance without their assent. Give someone the choice not to participate, and that must be honored across the board. Otherwise, yeah, Wildy will remain dead content.

17-Jun-2022 02:37:13 - Last edited on 17-Jun-2022 02:39:09 by Pachuli714

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
First of all, is Pking dead, or is it not? I would argue that it lives in spite of the RuneScape 3 team's blissful ignorance and the majority-rule of EfficiencyScape dictating which updates are important to the game and which aren't. Greifers - unfortunately - count as second rate PKers that, through updates that Jagex has green lighted regardless of how we feel about them, utilize content that still meets its purpose of players taking a risk in hopes of a reward. That's failing to mention the many other players who duel at the Grand Exchange or other player hubs, or PK in safer areas such as Clan Wars, or host community events to re-invigorate PvP minigames that - again - could use some much needed love from ole Jagex here.

Old School not only has siphoned away the old guard of Pkers that may still be in RuneScape - for obvious reasons..., but it very importantly has a team that dedicates significant time and effort and real spotlight in the art of PvP. And as long as that is a defining difference on why RS3's PvP scene is languishing, we can't actually say that we've tried the experiment with nearly a large enough sample size to determine that Pking has in fact died.

So, if we establish that PvP is in fact - not dead but on significant life support that is - as you have correctly pointed out at the moment dubious and harmful to players who want nothing to do with PvP in certain cases - then I would argue that part of any good "Wilderness update" is ensuring that we can save PvP to be more about willing combatants squaring off against one another and less about emulating the highwaymen outside of Falador looking to cut a few purses simply because there's someone to prey on.

Both of us can agree though - that this is no way to keep PvP alive, and I can easily see why many players would say "Kill it" if that's the direction Jagex wants to take. (cont.)
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

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17-Jun-2022 06:35:10

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(from prev.)

As for that direction? Well - it's not actually about any one type of player that makes use of Wilderness content, or could under more preferable circumstances even though they are in fact looking to increase activity there through the opt-in system.

It's very much lore driven. Over the next coming weeks, we're going to hear a whole lot about Zamorak and how the updates surrounding the end of this year tie into his existence...let's start with what we learn from the newest quest - Twilight of the Gods - which you should play if you don't want the below spoiler to ruin your gameplay experience.

We know from the quest, that the World Guardian is to re-instate the Edicts Guthix once put in place to banish the gods from Gielinor. The player will have to return to the Sword of Edicts, which is located in the Wilderness Volcano. We also learn that Zamorak, ahead of this much ballyhooed encounter, is holed up here, probably due to it's proximity to the Infernal Source, allowing him to transport the entire Avernic demon population of Infernus to Gielinor in order to wreak havoc on its peoples and other various races.


Strangely but not unsurprisingly, the upcoming Wilderness rework is something that developers want to include in these fireside chats about Zamorak, although knowing his history of destroying Forinthry with the Stone of Jas, along with his recent whereabouts, we know that his presence and resulting fallout because of it will likely be the turn of the game's lore that justify the RuneScape 3 team's move to update the Wilderness in the first place.

However, that means that no players whatsoever are the main reason for the update alone...

We learn from the Q&A with Mod Keeper though, that the Wilderness update is for "lapsed" or "old" players, and that they are "trying to speak to EVERYONE's" mind.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
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17-Jun-2022 06:50:06 - Last edited on 17-Jun-2022 07:11:53 by H 1 L D A

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(from prev.)

That brings us why I've been beating the drum for PvP in the first place. Like Mod Keeper, I would love to see this update be considered a positive one by EVERYONE - and I think it would be really cool if they are actually able to pull off a Wilderness that does interest possible returns by more Old School players or players who were playing the game years ago because of this update's successes and new content.

The harsh reality for those in the PvP community - which I would not say I am a part of even though fighting other players does admittedly interest me due to the ridiculously high skill floor and costs of items in game at the moment - is that they are the most underrepresented group in the game when it comes to content releases - and especially when it comes to genuine facilitation of competition and balancing around its very existence.

I think what we already know about being able to opt-out of PvP is an absolute win for Skillers - and it could be used for so much good in being a front row seat to genuine PvP while also broadening the game map for players who previously were told to avoid the place entirely. Lorehounds will have plenty to chew on as well by the sounds of things - but if this is implemented haphazardly, the unfortunate reality is that some content ends up being removed from the game, such as content that was balanced around the threats of human greed and concept of being hunted versus being the hunter.

I'm a player that has 90 Runecrafting currently - and it's on track to be the last 99 I'll need before maxing. I can't stand the RuneSpan, but I'm acutely aware that losing your pouches when a Pker kills you for an easy 550k if using the Demonic Skull is an incredibly frustrating experience. Part of it is on me for not having Bladed Dive and trying to double surge my way to the mage.

Still, I find the Abyss the way it is incredibly satisfying, even when taking a loss. I don't want that feeling ruined.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
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17-Jun-2022 07:04:15

Daryan3
Aug Member 2011

Daryan3

Posts: 106 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I think you should make the wilderness more hazardous, like Frenskae with environmental hazards and narrow paths. Maybe something like shadow, ice, smoke and blood zones with the corresponding effects like the spells. Or stat draining areas or antimagic zones. Meaning you really want to use Super stat restore potions and high level food. You could even wear god aligned gear like in the Godwars dungeon for a chance of a blessing by those gods, kind of like how random events used to be--ScapeRune, Evil Twins, etc. They could put in lore rich quests to explain why the areas are the way they are with new NPCs and skilling areas.

18-Jun-2022 10:17:44 - Last edited on 18-Jun-2022 10:24:16 by Daryan3

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