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PvP, Rebirth, and Good Faith

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Eliuaustin

Eliuaustin

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I'd have to disagree with the Legacy Combat buff idea.

I really don't think that the Legacy community is very large at all in RS3, and new players are more likely to play Revolution. I don't think RS3 will ever be able to make Legacy combat as interesting as it is in OSRS (especially given the 'tiered' approach to gearing you mentioned and strongly emphasized combat triangle).

Having 3 combat systems is too much to keep track of/balance, so I would instead suggest that Jagex work on making the ability-based system as good as it can be and leave click-and-wait for OSRS. The whole point of legacy was damage control after how abruptly they forced EoC on us. People are mostly over it now, and while some old-time players may appreciate it, many of them already just play OSRS, and I don't see it incentivizing PVP for new players.

I can perhaps see value in a Legacy toggle for safe PVP activities (e.g., if they added an LMS), but other than that, the focus should be on the main intended combat system for RS3.
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29-Apr-2022 03:35:36

H 1 L D A
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H 1 L D A

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@Eliuaustin

I tend to agree that the game trends toward players relying on Revolution and then weaning themselves off of it much farther down the line when they are beginning to make the jump into serious PvM. However, my personal experience with the game still sees at least one player out there using Legacy Combat every single time I log in - and I don't play on a Legacy-Only server by any means.

While I understand that these later game encounters encourage players to fully embrace the mechanics of the manual combat style - I just don't see why Legacy players cannot earn buffs - particularly through gameplay that is familiar to them if they are returning to the game from Old School (which does happen more often than you might think these days!) that allow them to play alongside users of other combat methods provided they put in the work to do so.

All the same, it wouldn't tear me up either way - in the end - I just think it would be prudent for Jagex to try and get the sense of what their RS3 PvP community truly looks like - and what prospective players (be they new blood or a RuneScape veteran hopping over from the other game) may also feel is necessary to address any concerns about PvP in the months leading up to an update that -could- further limit opportunity for PvP to exist. Improving EoC PvP should be a priority regardless.
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29-Apr-2022 04:39:05 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2022 04:40:30 by H 1 L D A

DarthChosen
Apr Member 2017

DarthChosen

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@I Hilda I id like to first say thank you for taking the time to write this all out and answering peoples questions.
i like you wish pvp to stay in this game for its entirety. pvp has been neglected for far to long and this is finally an opportunity to move into the right direction and allow jagex to make content additions to the wilderness.
i truly hope that this post catches the attention of others and ill be sure to share it with others myself. pssst....we know who you are. Hail Sithis!

29-Apr-2022 13:20:17

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

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H 1 L D A said :
First and foremost - Jagex needs to make a commitment to PvP as a company, not just over in Old School RuneScape.


They can't, because OSRS often fails whatever commitments Jagex made as a company. Look at Jagex's commitment to PvP as a company in Duel Arena please. RS3 removed it promptly in January as advertised but what OSRS's same commitment to remove their Duel Arena "imminently (TM)" has turned into total radio silent 6 months later.

Now, RS3 has committed to Wildy Reborn coming in Autumn. Meanwhile, OSRS proposed adding Wildy Boss featuring in a randomly spawned "World Boss" which is just the Demon Flash Mobs RS3 had for almost a decade. We can see RS3 and OSRS have totally different content as announced by the same company Jagex.

29-Apr-2022 17:22:56

PvPMatter
Apr Member 2023

PvPMatter

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So, it's hard to judge something before it's released. With that said I have to say, looking at the PVM focus opt in PVP for the wilderness announcement is extremely depressing.

We have yet to know what will be the result of this, but I'm sure most of you might be able to tell that RuneScape is pretty much all PVM focused now, again extremely depressing.

Hopefully thing's turn out well, as the new EP themselves said they don't particular enjoy RuneScapes combat system, there has to be some knowledge floating around in that developer room stating they can't keep making good RS content dead and then deleted just to add more PVM content or skilling plots.

Extremely odd how they first completely remove the Duel Arena and now make the wilderness possibly more PVM orientated........ I dunno
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29-Apr-2022 20:26:38 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2022 20:28:11 by PvPMatter

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@DarthChosen

Hey, many thanks for the appreciation and the sharing! I would really be heartened to see Jagex notice a high volume of discussion regarding the PvP as it pertains to..... it's general existence in RuneScape 3. I understand that the model for updates is driven by the moving narrative these days, and fitting in updates where players can just slap the stuffing out of each other doesn't in any way adhere to the game's narrative without creative and making a leap - so it's important to spotlight the community so that Jagex knows it's still there. Would really like to hear from currently active PvPers!

@Dilbert2001

With all due respect, I don't think your example is a very good one when it comes to accuracy or even to make your point that Jagex has a history of failing its Old School player base, which is why they shouldn't make commitments to it's RuneScape 3 player base. It's already been said on various newsposts that Old School will have a new matchmaking 1v1/tournament focused PvP mini game known as the PvP Arena as its replacement for Old School's Duel Arena. The mode removes the ability to stake in favor for new equipment that kind of reminds me personally of Pest Control gear (I'll happily admit I don't know all the specifics), as well as the ability to climb a moving ladder that would help with matchmaking. If it's not in the game yet, part of the reason may be due to Old Schools poll-first, release later situation while they are in the midst of development. That's about as far from radio silence as it can possibly be. Please feel free to correct me if I have mistaken what you were going for though!

@ShallPreval

This may sound strange, but I'm kind of hopeful when it comes to Jagex seeing it's PvP community as existent and recognizing what changing the Wilderness again means after its rough history. Opt-in PvP, for example, is not exactly the same thing Jagex pulled at the end of 2007.
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29-Apr-2022 21:35:16

H 1 L D A
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(cont.)

That's also a pretty big deal - because it's different from an outright removal of an area that could be exploited by the more ill-willed among our player base, like the removal of the Duel Arena was in January. Keeping in mind that Zamorak seems to be our next big star of the RuneScape's next lore arc and (SPOILER!) Zamorak is responsible for the fall of Forinthry/the outcome of the Wilderness as we know it in-universe as a result of his using the Stone of Jas , we can probably assume that the Wilderness update may be somewhat related to the narrative as well.

There's hope then, that Jagex doesn't intentionally have an appetite for removing PvP from the game. The big fears are that this update brings about negative changes to Wilderness content, some of which may include Wilderness Warbands abandoning its purpose of bringing players together in a situation where it behooves them to attack one another, or completely devaluing certain resources in the Wilderness that were given value in part by the reality that Pkers made harvesting such resources a risk. Finally, it's entirely possible that the payoff of other dangers (such as more Wilderness bosses potentially if it is going to be PvM focused) or perhaps a negative area danger like Fraeneskae's lightning or what have you, makes being the Wilderness just as frustrating for the average non-PvPer, which means that PvPers lose potential targets only for the area to still remain dead content due to players being risk-averse.

PvPers should be able to at least -survive- this update knowing that their reason for playing will still receive active support.

More PvM content is nice, especially if there's bonuses for opting-in to PvP on top of taking on the new dangers to fight the new NPCs.

More skilling content is nice.

If the Wilderness is just getting a breath of fresh air at the expense of a toggle, there's ways to do it right and with reassurance for all.
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29-Apr-2022 21:53:44 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2022 22:00:12 by H 1 L D A

Hispid Gnome
Nov Member 2011

Hispid Gnome

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Yes ty Hilda for creating this thread. Between yourself and Darth I am starting to come around to the idea of the wilderness reborn. When I first heard the words 'opt-in' to me that just sounded like the final nail in the coffin and as someone who fell in love with the wilderness back when I started playing this just seemed so sad. If jagex do use this as an opportunity to improve the PvP experience and make it Fun it just might be worth saying goodbye. I have long thought the way the wildy need reviving is to restart the food chain. Give skillers a reason to enter but the chance to escape with little to no risk so the lower level less skilled pk'ers have something to do then the bigger fish can come eat them. I always pictured it as Stealing creation in the Wild. So skillers could actually enter naked and make their own gear as they go gaining points w/c if killed are split the points 50/50 so little pk'ers could build up a lot of points from various kills then the big fish could swoop in and steal half a big stack... obvs points could be spent in a shop in edge and even though you could enter naked serious players would risk to be better geared for war... anyway... that was my dream for years So yes I can see that this opt-in may be a way to at the very least get something happening out there even if most people will just not opt-in at all.

And yes I like the idea of skillers having surge etc and the invulnerability poton for 30 seconds is great I have often thought they need to change how stuns/binds anticipate/freedom thing for pvp anyway Giving people who don't want to fight a fair chance to RunEscape is good.

Also another long term dream of mine has bean new ability books specifically designed for PvP rather than being stuck with watered down versions of abilities designed for PvM situations. I figured could have an entry level desert quest to unlock these new 'Ancient Ability Books' and then have the choice as to which books you prefer or even autoswitching
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30-Apr-2022 17:14:44

H 1 L D A
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@Hispid Gnome

Thanks for stopping by and giving the thread a read - and I certainly hope that with enough discussion around PvP the Wilderness truly is reborn in a way Jagex and as many people as possible can be happy with.

When it comes to the classic "food chain" argument that has been made for over a decade, I want to agree that it just isn't the RS Wilderness without such a dynamic - but it's not like taking a "if you build it they will come" approach has worked for the Wilderness lately - at least not routinely. Harder clue steps in the Wilderness actually ask the player to engage in newer Wilderness specific content, like hunting Charming Moths - and often times the treasure hunter will just drop the clue and start anew over doing so. The thing about that though is that often times, doing the clue step is just as safe as whatever step they replaced it with.

I might be wrong about this, but I would argue that the issue isn't lack of skillers or skilling locations so much as it this - there isn't enough Pkers... especially ones that are teaming up to hunt clans or are gearing up to engage in PvP with other Pkers specifically.

...and that is perhaps what brings us to where we are, with a Wilderness Rebirth idea that has yet to really acknowledge the existence of a PvP community that may be affected by it other than the rest of the community finds it cumbersome when engaging with non-PvP content out there.

I don't want to alarm anyone, but without proper dialogue - the Wilderness very well could be "the final nail in the coffin" for PvP that provides genuine reward.

How do we fix this? It's not subjecting skillers to becoming prey - it's incentivizing people to engage in PvP. That's where fixing abilities, probably doing things like retroactively providing PvP-only benefits to cheaper gear, and being constantly engaged with PvP activities such as alternative game-modes like DarkScape or minigames helps
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30-Apr-2022 19:00:19

Hispid Gnome
Nov Member 2011

Hispid Gnome

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I seriously think as well as player feedback they would do well to get a consultant in from the esports community to have a look at the PvP system and see what they would suggest to make improvements from a neutral objective perspective.

Because first and foremost if they make PvP fun, engaging and fair I think a lot more people would be interested in trying it out then Jagex could go about actually creating new PvP content.

I strongly believe that letting PvP fully die would be a massive mistake and a missed opportunity.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

30-Apr-2022 19:39:39

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