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GE Tax

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Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Pulseironic said :
Dilbert2001 said :
Architect15 said :
Imagine that, they are screwing us over all again. Paying an auction house fee on wow is one of the most painful things to do on world of warcraft, and now runescape want's to implement it as well.

I've received ENOUGH PAIN from having to pay in for taxes as a blue collar worker in the US, something MOST PEOPLE go their whole lives without ever experiencing. SCREW YOU RUNESCAPE!!!!! You know how vile and wicked of a choice this is. This is supposed to be a GAME!!! someplace fun to go and spend time. Not suffer the way you do in the real world. SHAME ON YOU JAGEX SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!


Imagine that, a WoW player tries RS3 now, dies and need to spend 1 mil gp to claim their items back. they are going to quit and return to WoW because they will only need to make a corpse run to get their stuff back there for free.

After the Death Cost/GE Tax update, the same player may come to RS3 and die and only need to pay 50k to get their stuff back, and so he proceed to the GE and find they only need to pay a 2% tax comparing to maybe 10% tax in their WoW AH.

This will make RS3 more competitive with WoW,

unless theyve changed it since i last played the wow ah fee was the sell to vendor value of the item. so the 2% could be no where near or insanely higher by comparison.

either way, given the hellhole that is the wow economy after they added their version of the bond with NO money sinks beyond one time purchases....ya im actually much more satisfied with how RS3 has handled the idea of a way to buy gold. EVE and RS3 are the only games ive seen where they had a significant way to remove raw cash and items.


I used WoW as an example as the person I replied to compared RS3 to WoW. I haven't been playing WoW lately so I am not sure how much is their AH charge there. I am sure sale tax on AH of many other games are much higher.

06-Jan-2023 03:26:37

Blake Owlkin
Apr Member 2013

Blake Owlkin

Posts: 79 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Architect15 said :
Imagine that, they are screwing us over all again. Paying an auction house fee on wow is one of the most painful things to do on world of warcraft, and now runescape want's to implement it as well.

I've received ENOUGH PAIN from having to pay in for taxes as a blue collar worker in the US, something MOST PEOPLE go their whole lives without ever experiencing. SCREW YOU RUNESCAPE!!!!! You know how vile and wicked of a choice this is. This is supposed to be a GAME!!! someplace fun to go and spend time. Not suffer the way you do in the real world. SHAME ON YOU JAGEX SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!


The tax on the GE would, if implemented correctly, make the game more fun. We currently have rather severe inflation due to every single player being able to print money.

Unlike real world taxes, this would be more analogous to the government collecting currency and burning it to increase the value of the remaining currency.

I still maintain that the tax rate needs to be higher than 2% to actually reduce the amount of gold though

06-Jan-2023 04:51:06 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2023 04:51:28 by Blake Owlkin

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Pulseironic said :

unless theyve changed it since i last played the wow ah fee was the sell to vendor value of the item. so the 2% could be no where near or insanely higher by comparison.

either way, given the hellhole that is the wow economy after they added their version of the bond with NO money sinks beyond one time purchases....ya im actually much more satisfied with how RS3 has handled the idea of a way to buy gold. EVE and RS3 are the only games ive seen where they had a significant way to remove raw cash and items.


Equipment loses 10 % durability per death in that game - it's just, that you lose way less in gold in relation due to this, which isn't a bad thing to be fair - since I've never heard anybody not wanting to try out PvE in that game, solely for the reason of progressing being to expensive. Otherwise yeah - their auction house fees, both for listing your offer, as well as selling it then.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
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06-Jan-2023 06:17:28

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blake Owlkin said :


The tax on the GE would, if implemented correctly, make the game more fun. We currently have rather severe inflation due to every single player being able to print money.

Unlike real world taxes, this would be more analogous to the government collecting currency and burning it to increase the value of the remaining currency.

I still maintain that the tax rate needs to be higher than 2% to actually reduce the amount of gold though


Jagex basically said a 1.5 % fee would counter the effect of the reduced death costs, but they sticked to 2 % to be on the safe side. And that's most likely under the assumption people wouldn't die more than they do right now. And obviously also trade as they do right now - which with 2 % most likely most players still will do. Yeah there probably are some very... vocal... players... right now, but other than that I doubt it'll have too much of an effect of the market. Go higher than that and they'll most likely stick to other channels and you're actually reducing the effect of the fee. Not because it would be too high, you're trying to enforce it on players who're just not used it - and too high you'll also get an outcry from less neurotic ones - that time actually justified.

The fee is one tool, but not the sole one, they have other tools (which they for my taste have excluded way too quickly) - most prominent to tackle the rampant gold generation - most obviously alching as is. Yes of course you can put in some 10 or even 20 or 30 % fee for trading and then force players to trade through those channels - but honestly - just because some random B-game does that (and actually was concepted with that in mind), doesn't mean we should abolish a system, that is part of RS since forever - and actually most games, that involve trading in one form or another.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

06-Jan-2023 06:27:50 - Last edited on 06-Jan-2023 06:36:07 by Rikornak

G O D Moto

G O D Moto

Posts: 11 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Comment 1:

Items won't exactly go up 2%. That's not how economics works. Supply/demand curves will readjust and the prices will end up somewhere in the middle of a 2% increase. The seller accepting slightly lower profits (post 2% tax) and the buyer accepting to pay more ( but not 2% more)

Comment 2:

Someone else spoke to this but an affect of tax on the GE will be a decrease in liquidity within the GE because people will opt to trade outside of GE.

Comment 3:

The GE provides a utility, it is a market marker and so it only make sense that we would pay for this service/convenience (no such thing as a free lunch). If you don't like the convenience then go be your own market maker and camp out in fally park like the old days.


Food for thought:

Bonds 10% conversion fee acts as a long term equalizer on inflation. Inflation happens with bond prices rising to reflect this, the 10% fee that acts as a gold sink would also go up with the bond prices. Eventually this fee would catch up with the current positive gold delta entering the game and I would expect inflation to stop. It's actually quite elegant of a solution, unfortunately we need 10X inflation to hit this equilibrium


Verdict:

This update will cater to a small portion of players. Those who PVM almost exclusively and those who can afford to have end-game weaponry which is basically the same groups. I think it's unfortunate that everyone else has to pay the price. I'm okay with the changes as a whole, but why not a .5-1% GE tax and a 40-60% reduction in death costs. The 2% and 90% seems drastic. Also I still favor a progressive system e.g., 0.1% death cost for items under 500m and .2% for items above 500m+ (as an example).

06-Jan-2023 21:54:04

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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GE Tax for Death Costs is a 1-for-1 trade off.
Frankly, it is a TBD on how well it impacts anything. As others have said, unless they're going to tax direct player trades as well, the tax might get mitigated.
Remember, the tax is also only on things that sell for above 50 GP ea. So if you sell low cost runes, feathers, etc, you won't be affected ... unless people suddenly start spiking the cost of a lot of items to above 50 GP just to get the tax into effect.

Second, they said in the live stream they'll "look at other things they can do".
I agree that this is not exactly helpful.
As players, we know they need to stop injecting gold thru events like the Postbag from the sledge .... they need to dial back the salvage drops from the Wilderness Flash Events ... and so on.

If they nerfed the auto-alchers ... then a lot of items would likely stop getting bought. This has an impact on supply/demand and would impact the economy heavily.
Dropping alch and store purchase prices by a few percent would also have an impact, but given the massive number of items in game, that could be a large project on its own.

I've been in favor of them expanding stuff in shops (ie: minigame gear now being purchasable for GP, transition a lot of the currencies to the GP standard, making auras and more cosmetics available for GP) but these would be mostly 1 time impact on GP ... not have any sort of long term drain.
I'd be in favor of having shop items be noted when they are purchased. It would be a 'convenience' thing for players since you can now buy 28 items from shops before you need to bank (especially if you hit the construction supply shops for marble and magic stones and gold leafs), but would it really encourage players to spend more?

06-Jan-2023 23:51:04

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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When they showed some of the how much gold was coming in from selling stuff to shops ... I'd like to know the breakdown.
How much of it was ironman only accounts?
How much of it was certain items? (is 10-20% of that players just selling off spirit shards that have floated in game for a long time .... how much of that is things players bought on the GE and then flipped to the shops for a 1-2 GP profit)

06-Jan-2023 23:53:10

Blake Owlkin
Apr Member 2013

Blake Owlkin

Posts: 79 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Based on my preliminary calculations, the annual RS3 gold inflation rate is about 40-42%.

That means that every year that passes, the price on every item on the exchange increases by 40%. The normal healthy inflation rate of a real world economy exhibiting growth is in the range of 5-7%.

Our inflation rate is wildly out of control, and Jagex needs to do something to take money out of the economy. The proposed 2% tax is only going to offset the money not being taken by death anymore. It does nothing to curb the out of control devaluation of the gold coin.

I understand that having a tax implemented might not be what everyone wants, but it is in our own best interest that gold be removed from the economy. To do so, measures must be put in place to remove roughly 90 billion gold a day, just to stop the problem from getting worse. To begin to heal, we need to remove even more gold than that daily.

Conversely, we could also achieve this by reducing the rate gold enters the economy without reducing the rate at which it leaves. For example, we could reduce the high alch value of items by some percentage across the board, but not change the amount the item costs to save on death.

I understand any such measure may be painful in the short term, but in the long run this will lead to a better Runescape experience for all.

07-Jan-2023 06:14:12

Fun Lupon
Jan Member 2023

Fun Lupon

Posts: 7,441 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jeremy Cheng said :
Signal Seven said :
It is a mistake to have the tax only affect trades on the GE. All this will accomplish will be people will move all large ticket items off the GE and render the GE useless for expensive items. I would also suggest that the tariff should be shared by the buyer and the seller. If a 2 percent tariff is the target have the seller pay 1 percent and the buyer pay 1 percent.

What do you guys think?

Agreed. Makes sense and would help with over max cash items.

I like the idea OP.

07-Jan-2023 12:37:15

G O D Moto

G O D Moto

Posts: 11 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
That's the same as having a 2% tax on one of the individuals. 1% from seller and 1% from buyer means they can still come together to collectively save 2% by taking the trade off the GE.

If all 2% lays with the seller then they will demand a higher price and so effectively that 2% is still split between the buyer and seller.


also side note for those that aren't aware:
OSRS already has a 1% tax. No one complains anymore and it works great.

07-Jan-2023 17:08:45

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