forums.rs

Forums

GE Tax

Quick find code: 16-17-501-66268636

of 10
Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Let's address the elephant in the room. As somebody who is not interested at all getting involved in PvM content - why do you even need a large amount of cash? With the exception of a very few things like the alchemical gem items, the scripture of bik, skilling offhands, tavias rod, tonys mattock and the dragon pickaxe and mattock - you can purchase every single relevant skilling item for some single digit millions at most - if a 2 % fee suddenly causes you failing at getting to that point, you're doing something horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. Or do you just want to play economy simulator to hoard as much as cash as you can? Then the tax is making your simulation even more believable.

Adarajin said :
As for the GE tax - this is a needed update to offset the rampant proliferation of excess gp in this game. For those afraid of losing your profits - just raise your prices by 2% to compensate for the 2% fee, and you will be losing a whopping 0.04% off of every transaction (assuming it's multiplicative math, where you earn 98% of 102% sales price)... don't like that 4 hundredths of a percent decrease? Increase your price by 3% and make more gp's.

I mean that's basically it - prices can fluctuate so heavily it won't matter at all. An item you were able to sell for 10k just can be worth 9.5k the next day - all without a tax the economy has cut in deeper in your profits than this than thing ever could. Of course players can increase their prices, but it obviously doesn't help at all if they're not getting rid of their stuff - and let's be straight right here: Everyone already has sold things a fair amount below the GE value, voluntarily losing profit - more than those meager 2 %. And this is what I expect - players selling items would stop so if that causes them to make loss due to the tax, since the demand won't go lower, prices will adjust so you'll roughly make as much of profit as you did before. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

14-Dec-2022 07:11:14 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2022 07:30:18 by Rikornak

Lysette

Lysette

Posts: 20 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said :
Let's address the elephant in the room. As somebody who is not interested at all getting involved in PvM content - why do you even need a large amount of cash?

Why do you care why someone needs gold? Everyone has different goals. Maybe I want to buy tons of bonds using gold, maybe it goes to fund a rare collection or maybe someone likes doing drop parties. It doesn't matter.

It matters because it shafts the non PvM players and more casual players while favoring big trading clans and even those who deal in RMT and break the rules as they can bypass GE entirely doing hand to hand deals.

I also absolutely hate this change and was hoping it would die because GE is just such a nice and convenient thing. After this, if you want to flip or do any kind of bulk trading, you're pretty much forced to do it manually again and be subject to scams.. not to mention wasting time that could be otherwise be used on doing something more fun.

14-Dec-2022 14:59:52 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2022 15:00:11 by Lysette

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lysette said :

Why do you care why someone needs gold? Everyone has different goals. Maybe I want to buy tons of bonds using gold, maybe it goes to fund a rare collection or maybe someone likes doing drop parties. It doesn't matter.

It matters because it shafts the non PvM players and more casual players while favoring big trading clans and even those who deal in RMT and break the rules as they can bypass GE entirely doing hand to hand deals.

I also absolutely hate this change and was hoping it would die because GE is just such a nice and convenient thing. After this, if you want to flip or do any kind of bulk trading, you're pretty much forced to do it manually again and be subject to scams.. not to mention wasting time that could be otherwise be used on doing something more fun.

As said in my first post - flippers probably are the only kind of player who literally would lose out on this - since yeah, obviously the market can't adjust itself for when all you do is buying and selling the same item repeatingly and suddenly someone else wants a part of that single transaction. And let's be honest - that is just making use of the fluctuation I am constantly refering to - if it wouldn't exist, your schemes wouldn't be possible at all. You obviously need to take that 2 % fee into account if you want to continue to make profit. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

14-Dec-2022 21:24:05 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2022 22:24:42 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thing is - you're the first flipper in this thread actually complaining about this update - everyone else complaining refers to themselves as skillers freaking out that their gathering and processing stuff suddenly wents from highly profitable to causing loss - it's the most common point in here - of course I'll refer to (or as you put it as 'do care about') this then and in here I say it again, since I've experienced the very same update in OS before . Production chains are not affected by this change. If you bought something to process it for profit, you'll still make profit for that, since the demand for those items won't lower due to a tax they won't have to pay up first. If you gathered something, you'll still make profit, since the demand for those items won't lower. At most the supply will - since obviously the tax ruins all profit, that could be made there, so why continue selling? - leaving bigger margins for those who stay to sell their items.

And even if this was the case - it's a fact, that a skiller doesn't need closely as much as money to get their stuff up and running than a PvMer - so what's exactly the issue that those can make more of it. Supply and demand all over again. Bonds certainly went out of bounds recently, but that's more to blame jagex for with them constantly introducing super rares via MTX, but it's still possible to make enough cash with high and even medium levelled skilling to keep your account paid.

I also make most of my cash by selling things - of course some stem from slayer and bossing, others stem from gathering - some are bought and processed as far as I deem it reasonable. And with my experience from that other game I'll doubt that I'll make noticeably less profit than before - in each of those areas. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

14-Dec-2022 21:28:48 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2022 22:23:13 by Rikornak

Lysette

Lysette

Posts: 20 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said :
Thing is - you're the first flipper in this thread actually complaining about this update - everyone else complaining refers to themselves as skillers freaking out that their gathering and processing stuff suddenly wents from highly profitable to causing loss - it's the most common point in here - of course I'll refer to (or as you put it as 'do care about') this then and in here I say it again, since I've experienced the very same update in OS before .

You really like jumpingo jump to conclusions I see. I never said I was a flipper and you're still missing the point so let me narrow it down for you more.

The problem isn't this tax per se. Again, if it was only that, markets would adjust. The problem is that there is a less convenient way around the tax! Which is manual trading.

If this update goes live, you can bet your socks that there will be clans and rich players who start bypassing GE and trading manually again. If you want to stay competitive, you have to do the same. I was complaining because using the GE is more convenient and I don't really wanna go back to manual trading.

My second point was that this inconveniences players and everything that does that for "greater good" is in my opinion a bad idea. There are other solutions and gold sinks that could be more positive ranging from better vendors, skills etc.

And finally, why do you judge what other players need gold for? Like how is any goal less valid than what you're claiming. After all, everyone plays for fun. I mean a skiller going after the world biggest burnt shrimp collection is about as important as a PvMer trying to buy their gear.

In fact, now that I think about it, those other, non gear related goals are more important. Ironman exists so you can earn your gear without using any gold however there is no way to get rares or bonds without gold.

15-Dec-2022 09:19:33

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lysette said :
You really like jumpingo jump to conclusions I see. I never said I was a flipper and you're still missing the point so let me narrow it down for you more.

The problem isn't this tax per se. Again, if it was only that, markets would adjust. The problem is that there is a less convenient way around the tax! Which is manual trading.

Granted - I assumed that, since nobody, but you and me brought that up before. And don't act like manual trading wouldn't be a thing right now. You'll need to do it if you want to buy something beyond your purchase cap, you need to do it to buy something past the gold cap (which Jagex is going to fix as well), you need to do it to buy things you'll only can trade person-to-person (like checked animals).

Lysette said :
If this update goes live, you can bet your socks that there will be clans and rich players who start bypassing GE and trading manually again. If you want to stay competitive, you have to do the same. I was complaining because using the GE is more convenient and I don't really wanna go back to manual trading.

Dunno - I can buy and sell my stuff perfectly fine in OS, which already has that convenience fee for over a year. Admittingly I do not deal in twisted bow leagues in that game, but I have no issues whatsoever to get my tools, equipment and supplies so far, as well to sell things I've acquired.

Of course some players will manually trade - but again: They already do so for so many years, even for things other than those you're actually forced to. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

15-Dec-2022 09:42:01 - Last edited on 15-Dec-2022 09:52:39 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lysette said :
My second point was that this inconveniences players and everything that does that for "greater good" is in my opinion a bad idea. There are other solutions and gold sinks that could be more positive ranging from better vendors, skills etc.

One method doesn't exclude others. That can be perfectly be done in addition. I am all in for reducing gold generation for instance - make salvage scale more gradually (with lower tiers being worth more, medium tiers worth roughly the same and runite+ less).

And while at it - slayers and bossers also need to suffer things 'for the greater good' - why do you think they'll have to bother with stone spirits (partially too low levelled) instead of ores and bars and seeds instead of herbs (for bossing), cutting into their profits. That was done to give skills more value - and while I want to see improvements to the stone spirits situation, I am generally supportive of those whole situation, since it gave skillers more value to a couple of skills - which obviously has hurt me in one way, but benefited in another. Salvage also was an upgrade for skillers, but for PvMers it just was one piece alch junk traded for another with equal value. Eventually they'll also need to suffer in order to get woodcutting fixed.

The fee does nothing to elevate them, it hits everyone equally, PvMers just more in absolute numbers. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

15-Dec-2022 09:42:22 - Last edited on 15-Dec-2022 10:38:01 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lysette said :

And finally, why do you judge what other players need gold for? Like how is any goal less valid than what you're claiming. After all, everyone plays for fun. I mean a skiller going after the world biggest burnt shrimp collection is about as important as a PvMer trying to buy their gear.

I said it literally in my last post: It was the most common complaint (with some brutally wild assumptions and some even wilder suggestions for solutions), so it obviously something that can be addressed in the discussion. If you don't want it to be discussed - bring it up in your circle jerk, but not in a public forum. Or post it in the rants section. Since neither applies in here, it's a valid point to discuss - as easy as that.

Lysette said :
In fact, now that I think about it, those other, non gear related goals are more important. Ironman exists so you can earn your gear without using any gold however there is no way to get rares or bonds without gold.

Ironmen who want to buy their cosmetics and/or bonds are not reliant at all from our economy - they'll need to find stuff, that either grants as much of direct gp as possibly or can be alched for that. At worst they'll need to do slightly more when vendors are giving the fee to consumers. But it's more than easy enough to generate huge amounts of gp in RS3 - otherwise we wouldn't have that rampant inflation in the first place. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

15-Dec-2022 09:48:21 - Last edited on 15-Dec-2022 09:54:52 by Rikornak

Yusou Bhoroi

Yusou Bhoroi

Posts: 8,551 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said :


Since RS3 proposes no cap, it will become an issue for really expensive items - but let's be honest, that isn't an issue for skillers - or have you ever sold something worth billions - I mean something you've obtained yourself by skilling?

Not an individual item, no... but I've many times sold multiples of things, collectively worth billion(s), which I've created through skilling - both in terms of high-price, small-profit things, which are quite profitable, in terms of GP, due to high value turnover, and also in terms of things directly created (stacks of millions of Astral runes, for instance).


That said, I'm fairly ambivalent on the tax, as I can see the need for it. The only thing I don't get, is why they have to reduce the "Death Tax", at the same time, as Bossing is already too strong a way of making money, compared to other high-activity content.


People who concentrate on making money through flipping, will still be able to make money, just require being more selective, and changing item portfolio, once margins shrink.

It's annoying, and I'd far rather they'd never caused the issues with the Spin/TH element of the game, but that's done, and they can't undo it, now, without losing most of their revenue (given the change in playerbase, and the expansion into different areas); the tax is the easiest, and safest way to achieve this.

Hopefully future updates, focused around sinks, may reduce the need, while being part of good content - so that they can perhaps remove the tax.



As you say, in later posts, the tax has 0 overall effect, as while it may reduce money made, the prices will decrease by the same amount (margins are market driven, so they'll exist, with the tax as a non-existent space, in between). It's not like any one party is collecting the tax, it's the game doing it.

As long as there aren't too many complete/fully processed items, coming in from PvM, it will even out.

17-Dec-2022 00:31:00 - Last edited on 17-Dec-2022 00:40:32 by Yusou Bhoroi

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The Death tax had to be reduced, since the costs for dying just get out of bounds from certain equipment onwards - let's be straight, that system was designed at a time in which we got t80 equipment, without any kind of future proofing like a lot of old things, they've even just slapped in that 20 % charge loss if reclaiming unprotected degrading items (or 4 hour of charges for augmented ones) from a grave on top of it. - I think a lot of players do not even understand that, that this is the reason why so many players are reluctant to get into PvM. Of course deaths should be punishing, but paying a few millions will still achieve this - in OS those costs even cap out at 500k (modern system = future proofed thoughts put into that) when reclaiming from your grave (which is highly discouraged in RS3 when you've got unprotected degrading items due to aforementioned change) - afaik it gets really awful if you have reclaim from death though. And especially if you're trying to learn something new you'll die a lot and will still flush out enough cash that way (I mean why is everyone acting like dying is bascially free after the rework...?) Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

17-Dec-2022 08:29:02 - Last edited on 17-Dec-2022 08:36:34 by Rikornak

Quick find code: 16-17-501-66268636 Back to Top