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GE Tax

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Sevel
Dec Member 2020

Sevel

Posts: 1,164 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Obviously the tax is bs.

But if anything, I'd say if there is a tax it should be on purchase, not sales.

That way at least you'd be encourages to produce things yourself. I agree that this is just a load of bs that will mostly affect skillers. PvMs will not have a problem just selling their high trier loot in forums or in dedicated FCs. Sure they will be affected on the "smaller items" that stack up too but that is no comparison to skillers whatsoever.

This is an insane idea and a step backwards. Do we really want bank sales again???? :| As many have already said, there is plenty of ways of draining money from the game and if they didn't pile money onto the players so much (not to mention free exp) it wouldn't be needed to such degree. And meanwhile the death costs are being reduced.


Why on earth does jagex hate skillers so much. The vast majority of resources already seems to be put into pvm (actually no, its put into ingame purchases) while skilling is constantly being made easier and pretty much skippable. I know skillers are the minority. And ever more so the more skilling is being made obsolete (I mean lets face it, who still cares about a 99. Even 120s seem little effort). But rs will never be able to compete with the big mmos out there that concentrate on pvm. God this is all so depressing.

11-Dec-2022 13:52:28

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'll copy my reply from the other thread:

OS has introduced the tax (or as they call it: convenience fee) last year after getting rid of their duel arena staking (+ tax) - 1 % tax with a cap of 5m per item. While I was heavily on the fence before that introduction, effectively you just do not really feel it for your day to day stuff - it deduces a few hundred to thousand coins per transaction, that's basically the same as the usual price fluctuation - the sole exception is if you flip stuff, that potentially might eat up your profit.

Since RS3 proposes no cap, it will become an issue for really expensive items - but let's be honest, that isn't an issue for skillers - or have you ever sold something worth billions - I mean something you've obtained yourself by skilling? That's solely one for PvMers, which get their much cheaper deaths instead. And yeah - treasure trailers for their ultra expensive things. It might be worth to trade person to person if 20m for a 1b transaction is too much for you, but let's be real - is that actually feelable there either? Someone who can net this continously doesn't care about that as much as you shouldn't care about a 200 gp fee for your 10k deal. As long as you literally do not flip (or buy things to make stuff with an extremely narrow margin, which likely will adjust itself) it's really not an issue.

I mean it potentially could be feelable, since the trade cap will become much higher in addition - but then again - 20 billions of a trillion transaction... 20 trillions for a quadrillion... 20 quadrillions for a quintillion... and let's be honest until we trade in those dimensions. And then there is that tax... Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

11-Dec-2022 14:54:14 - Last edited on 11-Dec-2022 14:54:58 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It's generally fairly easy: If the tax cuts the margin to sell certain things, some players will stop selling (or just selling less) them, which automatically will cause them to rise in value - effectively not affecting your profit as a seller, but rather causing the buyer to pay more, which potentially could cause them buy less - but that's basically like a economic works, but in the end it's usually an issue for the customer - except when the market is heavily contested.

But you usually won't feel more than just the price fluctuation you'll have to deal with anyway. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

11-Dec-2022 14:57:44 - Last edited on 11-Dec-2022 15:12:39 by Rikornak

Sevel
Dec Member 2020

Sevel

Posts: 1,164 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
That's not how math works Rikornak XD whether you sell for 10 gp, 10k, 10 mil 10 bil.... 2 % will remain 2 %. And it is A L W A Y S taken from the side that put in the effort.

The change once again punishes for putting in effort. Those that are lazy and just purchase are all fine. And again, those that get major drops from pvm will just move to forums or soemthing. It won't be hard to sell one single item.

There is just simply no logic putting the tax on the selling side. And I don't even care about money loss per se. I care about the principle and the thinking behind it and how this same mistake is constantly applied in rs througout the past years. Once again the skillers are put to a disadvantage. And saying it happens "sneakily" so that the skillers won't notice it right away so it's no big deal is like....how does that make it any better?? It's like saying "oh pickpocketing in like commute is no big deal I just take like a few bucks they won't even notice it's only a bank robbery that's a crime".

Runescape is famous for its versatile skills. If you google mmos for skilling, its mentioned on so many sites as recommendation. And yet Jagex has been chipping away on that very thing. :| no wonder the servers are all so empty.

11-Dec-2022 15:33:56

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It's just easier to show the customer what he has to pay, instead of showing him what you want into your pocket afterwards.

Do you know how the VAT works - it's also a tax the vendor has to turn over to the state for everything he sells. But do you also know what the vendor usually does? He slaps it onto the price, so the customer has to pay it (i.e. the customer will in the end pay the base price + VAT - the vendor in the end will keep the same amount of cash, so those 700 yen for your doner kebab also won't fully stay where you bought it - but if the vendor was smart they've calculated for this). Sometimes the vendor feels generous instead and just pays it for the customer - and only then it will be his issue alone - potentially getting more people to buy at him instead.

'Taxation is theft' certainly is a point of view of some people on the other hand... but it's not even a tax in here (even when they call it like this) - you just can trade person to person like a medieval man, so you'll get your additional 200 gp for your 10k trade - or you just pay up your 'convenience fee' like most others just will do.

Also I haven't said it has no effect (since mathz ain't work like this XD) - otherwise it would be pointless to introduce in the first place - I said you or I effectively will not feel the effect, since OS is using the very system for over a year now and players obviously still are trading all things cheap and expensive via the GE, despite the game leeching off 1 % of your profit for that. Right now an item you usually can sell for 10k could suddenly only be worth 9500 - all without a tax stealing from you - who stole from you in that case? The deregulated free market?

And again - that's nothing about skillers, everyone has to pay the tax - PvMers obviously much more in absolute numbers, but yeah - read my last post about that. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

11-Dec-2022 15:52:02 - Last edited on 11-Dec-2022 16:42:39 by Rikornak

Sevel
Dec Member 2020

Sevel

Posts: 1,164 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I don't know what you mean with "easier to show customer". Perhaps you are american and you're used to seeing the pre-tax rather than the net price you're actually paying but that is just an issue of how things are depicted.

Anyway, the plan isn't equal to VAT it's equal to Wage tax. The money is deducted from the working side rather than the buying side.

If it was VAT it'd be slapped onto the exact other end. The person that buys pays vat. This is exatly what I'm ranting about. - Aside it being a stupid way to draining money in general,- IF a tax was applied it should be applied to the purchase - like VAT - and not to the sale. I know i'm repeating myself but it baffles me that you are using this as an example for the exact opposite lol.

Also, the Salesman has no choice but to put it onto the price lol. He can reduce the original sales price but he cannot sell below profit on a regular basis - at least here. And vat always applies. Besides, salesmen gotta live too. But it doesn't matter, the GE Tax is not equal to vat. It is a reduction of money you earn, not a rise of the money you spend.

So now we would have the choice to try and sell it for 2 % above ge price. But with pvms out there that get drops that are worth billions it is pretty much impossible to really pull through with that. Because they won't care. And yes maybe prices will just gradually rise (albeit unlikely) but since when is inflation a desirable outcome?

In many cases the value of the product already doesn't reflect the time it requires to obtain it. Just look at magic logs. And of course training has become a lot cheaper with all the bonus exp so there is a LOT less demand. Yes, there are some skills that still make good money but it is to no compare to pvm. Not only are many gathering skills worthless now the people gathering need to pay a penalty. This is insane.

11-Dec-2022 16:59:44

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
That's exactly what I am talking about - the customer sees you selling something for 1000 gp, he buys it for that - and you'll receive 980. In a real scenario you first receive the full amount, but you'll have to turn it over to the state.

And yeah - at first you as the vendor would pay the VAT, since you're responsible for delivering it to that state. But since you absolutely do not want to do this, you slap it onto your price. Otherwise exactly what you're describing will happen to you - your profit will receive a cut of 2 %. But again - prices can fluctate way stronger than that on a daily basis in this game.

You can make money with almost every skill - construction aside, since the philosophy of that skill is to sink money. Some skills obviously aren't even close as good as others, but you can make decent profit more often than not by processing things - I made more than enough with the herblore expansion back then, while training the skill to its new level cap - it's just keeping the eyes open of what could be needed by others - likewise with archaeology - sure I obviously haven't ended up on the first page of the hiscore, but on the other hands I had a solid net plus at the time I reached 120. I am fairly sure the new skill also will give some great opportunities. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

11-Dec-2022 17:30:57 - Last edited on 11-Dec-2022 17:33:05 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Of course it's fine a slayer and especially a bosser will be able to make more - they'll also be required to do (and especially invest ) more than just to bankstand for a while, but it's nonsense you can't earn money while skilling. Maybe your currently favourite skill (or even worse: activity) isn't as profitable as you want it to be - but that's it.

And yeah - great magic logs - an outright broken activity, that just got outperformed by droppers (not calling it great, but obtaining magic logs (or just yew) via woodcutting is something special - woodcutting is as much in need of a fix, as mining back then was - but justifying awful harvesting rates with 'it's valuable' just is prone to land on your feet eventually - runite at least was backed up with its alching value, but that's also now often stone spirits cutting into the profits of PvMers at activities, that shouldn't drop t40 or 50 materials and solely did, because it was valuable alch junk). No matter what - magic logs are worthless for a long time already, that has nothing to do with recent updates - players treat it as what it is: a material you need to create a lower mid levelled bow. You want something valuable - push them for a woodcutting and fletching rework, introducing a tree used for a basic t90 bow. Preferably also the ammo.

Meanwhile - cut bloodwood instead twice or thrice daily, make the bolts, gem tip the bolts, enchant them... of course that also has taken a hit, since crossbows aren't as favourable anymore, but it certainly is way better than even considering cutting magic trees. And while we're at ammunition - dinarrows - you can make profit with firemaking , a skill literally just for burning your money until a few years ago - incense sticks obviously also were an opportunity to make a few bucks with that (+herblore, +prayer). All not that great as PvM, but skills have gotten a lot of awesome opportunities over time. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

11-Dec-2022 17:34:41 - Last edited on 11-Dec-2022 18:01:36 by Rikornak

SlR
Nov Member 2020

SlR

Posts: 4,378 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It'll be a drop in the ocean. I give it a couple of weeks of panic before everyone settles down and accepts it. Prices will fluctuate at first but they'll go back to how they were. Bob says:
A bank PIN will keep your items secure.
Always check the second trade screen.
Never trade in the Wilderness!
Keep your computer keylogger-free and virus scanned.
Never give your password out to anyone.

11-Dec-2022 17:58:27

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