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Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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It's not imagined, its real! If I may, what is your background with God? Have you truly ever had a talk with Him? To be honest, when he talks, you know its not you, you feel it inside.
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I would prefer not use personal experiences for the sake of objectivity in this discussion. My point is, if you imagine God to be a guardian kind of relationship, then it will take that form. If you imagine him to be a best friend kind of relationship, then it will be so. In a sense, yes, it is imagined. And no one else is in a position to judge your relationship with God.
And because no one else is in a position to judge, to determine your personal relationship with God, no one can say it is ‘real’ or not. Nobody can prove anything. Instead, these were simply judged by the deeds of an individual, and they themselves were far from perfect.

God was with them, for sure. If you were God, would you just let humans organize what your word is? No, you would make sure they did it right, but then you might say, What about Free-Will? well God was there with the people that did that, and helped them through it, God gave them the responsibility, they did not just take it, it was given to them.
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You don't *know* that God was with them. You were just told to believe. God would not intervene humans wage war and kill each other in His name, but instead, be with them about this? Of course THEY would claim the responsibility was given to them. They wouldn’t care to mention in a Bible footnote that it is possible that the Bible contains personal opinions simply inappropriate in the modern times. That women should be silent in congregations, or inferior to men, or that slavery is acceptable, or that some races are born inferior to others. And does God really think that? I reckon it was more clouded by the conventions of the time, because the religion is trying to survive, and so they must say certain things are acceptable, which today, no longer are.

16-Feb-2011 15:44:45

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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You are just talking about very simple things, things that just aren't important. If John Smith was the real God, he would not be angry at you, God only got angry before Jesus' death, because there was no way for the people of God to be saved, for no one could accomplish the Law, which is what Jesus did. So now, Jesus takes most of the punishment for our sins. That is why God is not angry at you, he loves you.
Has John Smith ever talked?
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Aren’t important? Please don’t insult my God. My God performed far more miracles than I have seen of your God. John Smith gets angry when I do not defend him against such accusations. And I know your Bible, so I will also know that what you said about God gets angry before Jesus is complete rubbish. God is all powerful, and if he loved his people, truly, he would have found a way. From a novelist’s point of view, this is one of the most ridiculous cover-up for a plot hole I’ve ever seen. And of course John Smith talked. Just read through his text, and you’ll start hearing him speaking inside you. I’d feel the sensation of an invisible hand touching me. So, obviously he’s real.

16-Feb-2011 15:44:56

Von Varr

Von Varr

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I would prefer not use personal experiences for the sake of objectivity in this discussion. My point is, if you imagine God to be a guardian kind of relationship, then it will take that form. If you imagine him to be a best friend kind of relationship, then it will be so. In a sense, yes, it is imagined. And no one else is in a position to judge your relationship with God.
And because no one else is in a position to judge, to determine your personal relationship with God, no one can say it is ‘real’ or not. Nobody can prove anything. Instead, these were simply judged by the deeds of an individual, and they themselves were far from perfect.
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Ok thats fair enough, but it is not imagination! If one day you experience God talking to you, you will realize it is not your imagination! if you truly are seeking him, you will find him, and he will talk to you.

You don't *know* that God was with them. You were just told to believe. God would not intervene humans wage war and kill each other in His name, but instead, be with them about this? Of course THEY would claim the responsibility was given to them. They wouldn’t care to mention in a Bible footnote that it is possible that the Bible contains personal opinions simply inappropriate in the modern times. That women should be silent in congregations, or inferior to men, or that slavery is acceptable, or that some races are born inferior to others. And does God really think that? I reckon it was more clouded by the conventions of the time, because the religion is trying to survive, and so they must say certain things are acceptable, which today, no longer are.
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God is not for war. The people that declared wars on other "non-belivers" were not Christians, they were the farthest away form God as they could be. You say it is only the religion trying to survive, and I agree with you! As soon as the Christian faith becomes a religion, God is not in there any more, God wants a real relationship with humans, not a doto

17-Feb-2011 17:52:09

Von Varr

Von Varr

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list, that would be totally useless...

Aren’t important? Please don’t insult my God. My God performed far more miracles than I have seen of your God. John Smith gets angry when I do not defend him against such accusations. And I know your Bible, so I will also know that what you said about God gets angry before Jesus is complete rubbish. God is all powerful, and if he loved his people, truly, he would have found a way. From a novelist’s point of view, this is one of the most ridiculous cover-up for a plot hole I’ve ever seen. And of course John Smith talked. Just read through his text, and you’ll start hearing him speaking inside you. I’d feel the sensation of an invisible hand touching me. So, obviously he’s real.
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You have never seen my God make miracles because you were never paying attention when they happened.
God does not get angry before Jesus, that's not what I meant to say, Jesus takes the punishment of our sins willingly, God does not get angry at Him, but the justice of God has to be accomplished, and that is how we have Grace. Jesus is the way, only by him can we be saved.
OK so you say John Smith is real and he spoke to you through his texts, but if he were real, he would have accomplished supernatural miracles. That is the whole definition of God, a supernatural being. If John Smith is not able to accomplish supernatural things, he is not a god.

17-Feb-2011 17:58:06

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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Ok thats fair enough, but it is not imagination! If one day you experience God talking to you, you will realize it is not your imagination! if you truly are seeking him, you will find him, and he will talk to you.
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While it is certainly plausible that what you said might be true, I remain unconvinced. That point of discussion seemed to have derailed. What I am saying is that faith manifests itself, and it feeds on whatever we give it. In turn, we’ll get from it what we want to believe. Yes, we want to believe we won’t truly die when we die. We want some supreme beings to sooth our regrets. Too much is personal, and that made claims about having a ‘real’ relationship with God difficult. After all, your definition isn’t everybody else’s definition.
God is not for war. The people that declared wars on other "non-belivers" were not Christians, they were the farthest away form God as they could be. You say it is only the religion trying to survive, and I agree with you! As soon as the Christian faith becomes a religion, God is not in there any more, God wants a real relationship with humans, not a doto list, that would be totally useless...
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God is not for war – to be honest, The Old Testament would have proved you wrong. By God’s orders, if one man from a village worships another god, it must be conquered and burned to the ground. Usually the children slaughtered the young women *****, or taken home as slaves. God actually permitted, even allowed these people to believe they were chosen. Tell me, who is more guilty, the tempted, or the tempter? Now answer me this. Who is more guilty, the tempter, or the one who created the tempter knowing he will be the tempter?

17-Feb-2011 22:01:25

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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You have never seen my God make miracles because you were never paying attention when they happened.
God does not get angry before Jesus, that's not what I meant to say, Jesus takes the punishment of our sins willingly, God does not get angry at Him, but the justice of God has to be accomplished, and that is how we have Grace. Jesus is the way, only by him can we be saved.
OK so you say John Smith is real and he spoke to you through his texts, but if he were real, he would have accomplished supernatural miracles. That is the whole definition of God, a supernatural being. If John Smith is not able to accomplish supernatural things, he is not a god.
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I could equally say the same. You haven’t paid attention when my God performed miracles. Jesus is, arguably, the only decent man in the Bible. Whether it was a biased account with twisted historical facts, or anything else I haven’t yet researched. And what if John Smith did accomplish supernatural things? That’s why I worship him, after all.

17-Feb-2011 22:01:41

[#KTGDNKTPA]

[#KTGDNKTPA]

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Hey Englishkid. Sorry for the long wait, but I just read just around the first page of your story and I'm pretty impressed.
I especially found the first part very believable and it was very easy to identify with Ronny. The question about the reason of one's life is probably one that everyone on this forum ever asked himself. (Not at the cost of suicide though, haha :) )
This allowed me to easily slip into the emotional shell that was Ronny, and made reading the first parts very enjoyable. So far, you created a very plausible, deep character of which I haven't seen the likes on this forum yet.
"Opting not to look outside, he would glide sleepy-eyed down the long corridor of the first floor, under the surveillance of suits of armour on the sides. He would catch his own reflection in a gilt mirror, and would again be reminded that his pillow was an abysmal hairdresser. While he was there anyway, he might as well travel another two rooms to the left, to the bathroom, brush his teeth, and go to the loo. Beneath his feet would be a golden rug with a corner chewed away by a dog long-dead. After a twenty-minute shower, he would sort out his hair and, reaching the kitchen at last for some food, would be told by the cook that he’d missed breakfast by at least four hours. He would have to go with a growling stomach to Reldo, for the reading session in the library…"
I wasn't really that fond of the 'would'-structure here. I can understand why you've done it, and it stresses the repetition Ronny does in his head, but that's also how it felt to read: A repetition. The massive usage of 'would' makes this piece much less diverse than what you are undoubtly capable of, which I found a shame.
It continues in the same fair quality it has upheld from the beginning, although the later parts failed to grasp me as much as the beginning parts, which were a little bit more powerful.

20-Feb-2011 11:40:25

[#KTGDNKTPA]

[#KTGDNKTPA]

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I found the archetype of Edward bland and unoriginal until I read the part about Edwards stance towards Ronny.(Post 8: Edward asked .. for guidance) However, I felt it split chapter one, completely obliterating the structure. It felt totally out of place. Turning away from Ronny for such a small bit of text pulled me away from Ronny's thought process, and it would be easier to sympathise with Ronny without knowing the true intentions of Edward. Ronny already feels kind of silly that way, and reflecting thoughts in retrospect for the characters is, I find, an excellent way to develop your characters further in the story.
The interaction is a delight to read though. Ronny already feels like the disgruntled younger sibling that always looks up to his brother. I cannot really say I can identify myself with him at the same level, since I'm the elder sibling here, but it felt realistic and I'm happy you are having a quite imperfect protagonist rather than the standard archetype you find around these forums staging an overly powerful, kind and handsome protagonist.
Ultimately, you've given me an enjoyable time spending my free time. I hope you can overcome the clichés that come with the character of Edward, but it looks very promising so far. Maybe I'll find out myself if I can find the time to read it further later. :)
~ Mippow

20-Feb-2011 11:51:37

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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Hello, Mippow.
Honestly, I didn't expect to hear from you, and it was a delight you managed to recover from what must have been an academic blow. I'm glad you made it through though.
Thank you so much for taking your time to read this, as I'm no doubt aware that you still have a great deal to catch up on and, to be honest, wasted a precious half an hour of your own life on my stuff - :P .
You have raised some great points there. I too, noticed the 'would' issue in that paragraph and I did try to reduce its impact, but to a certain degree I felt myself unable to avoid it.
The first chapter actually didn't have a particular structure, and served as something from which I can build the story. But perhaps, one more chapter, and you'd change your idea about Edward ;)
Once again, thank you so much.

20-Feb-2011 21:57:25 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2011 22:03:39 by Englishkid62

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