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Theos
Aug
fmod Member
2008

Theos

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Kalea Sprite said :
Theos said :
~ It seems we agreed that some players like to have collections ~
Well yeah, everyone's bank is literally a collection of stuff, although obviously some folks are more focused on collecting specific things, such as burnt food for example.

But, I think there's a difference between a collector and a flip/merch/investor.

It seems to me that a collector is simply focused on collecting stuff and isn't concerned about leeching maximum profit margins.

The difference is that the flip/merch/investor is only concerned about profit, they don't care about the item, they only care about how much the item will allow them to leech from the community.

So, I think the flip/merch/investing activity is a problem because it results in a number of abuses and leads towards an oligopoly or monopoly that controls the item, dominates the market and leeches maximum wealth from unsuspecting players.

So, why the concern about the price of tokens?

Some people claim that burnt food is junk, however there are, in fact, people that love to collect burnt food, they really care about burnt food. They often pay good prices for burnt food but they're not worried about the profit value of the burnt food, they appear to simply enjoy the comedy value of having max stacks of burnt food.

In other words, one person's junk, is another person's treasure.

If one is collecting something, simply for the enjoyment of collecting something, such as burnt food, why would there be a concern about how much the item can be used to leech wealth from the economy?

So we fundamentally disagree on the way "flipping/investing/merching" are handled. I think there's a bias against merchants when it comes to decisions affecting items, prices, and the availability.
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15-Nov-2019 17:53:38

Theos
Aug
fmod Member
2008

Theos

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In the real world, there's nothing stopping someone from investing in a particular stock or "hoarding" shares at low prices. These tokens, and cosmetic items aren't essential goods in Runescape for skilling. They don't need market interference from Jagex, like essential goods might.

I think there's also a vast difference between personal investing, and "pyramid scheme" groups who buy out items and hoard them so the price skyrockets and then dump the item. This happened in the past during the trade restriction very prevalently.

My philosophy is Jagex should be very "hands off" when it comes to the Runescape market. It seems we disagree in this, as you seem to be okay with collecting but associate merchanting/investing as "problematic". I see merchanting/investing as a legitimate component to the game, and something Jagex should interfere with as little as possible.

The way Jagex chooses to reintroduce some items has seemed very arbitray. Look at Rubber Turkeys for example, which were reintroduced. Christmas Scythe, and Holly Wreaths weren't reintroduced. There were a couple of players who had upwards to 50B GP worth of Rubber Turkeys prior to them being reintroduced. People would clearly association this reintroduction with "targeting" those merchants, but I don't see that as necessary or fair to paying members of the game. Even at peak prices, Rubber turkeys were purchasable for 40m-50m a piece. Was that necessary? I don't think so, nor do I think it is appropriate for the game developer to have do certain actions that clearly impact the market and impact a certain group of players.

"If one is collecting something, simply for the enjoyment of collecting something, such as burnt food, why would there be a concern about how much the item can be used to leech wealth from the economy?"

I don't think "leech wealth" is fair. We don't scrutinize people for investing in the real world. Why do we do so in Runescape?
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15-Nov-2019 17:58:14 - Last edited on 15-Nov-2019 17:59:10 by Theos

Theos
Aug
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2008

Theos

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ELITE STACK said :
If someone wants to merch tokens why is that a problem? What's wrong with making billions of gp off items, already happens with partyhates and hween masks. I just don't see anything wrong with it. It's no different then making 100m/hr from pvming for 12 hours a day.

This question, and your answer honestly sums up my opinion as well 100%.

Why is merchanting a problem, and why is there always a bias toward hurting merchants and their investments? Is it to force people to partake in PVM, or other avenues of gameplay?

"Maybe they can add items to gameplay while keeping them rare like zombie walk to tarket and plague walk to mourners. Just saying tokens shouldn't be released to worthlessness like this."

- I also agree with this fully. I think Jagex should allow these tokens to flow their "natural course". If players decide to invest in them, so be it. Having expensive or rare items to obtain helps provide goals for players. Zombie walk, and plague doctor walk tokens have become "goals" for many completionist players in Runescape. A wide variety of interesting, limited edition or discontinued items adds diversity to the market. I don't see any problem with this; I think the current Treasure Hunter market is incredibly boring with these tokens literally being rinsed and recycled over and over again.
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15-Nov-2019 18:02:37

Theos
Aug
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2008

Theos

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"The difference is that the flip/merch/investor is only concerned about profit, they don't care about the item, they only care about how much the item will allow them to leech from the community."

- Kalea, why is it problematic for merchants/flippers/investors to want to make money in game this way as opposed to players making money in other more conventional ways such as PvMing or skilling?

Do you think merchanting/flipping/investing is a valid activity in Runescape? If no, why not when people do this regularly in the real world as a hobby or for investing in their future?

Do you think it is fair that some items have not been reintroduced such as Zombie Walk or Plague Doctor's token, allowed to reach prices in the 300m to 2147m+ cash range whereas other tokens are routinely and regularly reintroduced such as the Conga walk (currently valued at 1.5m)? Do you think it is fair for Jagex to selectively choose which items they intend to be destined to become incredibly valuable in the future due to their decision to not reintroduce such items such as Zombie walk but to routinely reintroduce other tokens? (Conga walk, Loved Up Walk, etc)?
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15-Nov-2019 18:08:24

Kalea Sprite

Kalea Sprite

Posts: 1,658 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Theos said :
~ So we fundamentally disagree on the way "flipping/investing/merching" are handled. I think there's a bias against merchants when it comes to decisions affecting items, prices, and the availability. Theos said :
~ I think Jagex should respect that a free market is healthy, and a necessary part of a dynamic economy ~
A dynamic free market economy is competitive and prevents monopolies from forming.

In the real world, major countries have regulations that address anti-competition practices that are aimed at preventing the formation of monopolies and other kinds of market abuses such as price fixing, etc.

Now, in this game there are buy/sell limits on the Grand Exchange, these limits are an example of a regulation that aims to prevent the anti-competition practices of flip/merch/investors.

So, it's not so much a bias against merchants generally speaking, rather the regulation aims to prevent price manipulation, although it seems to be less effective in preventing the formation of monopolies that obstruct the dynamics of a free market economy. 'o.0'
Something interesting happened.

15-Nov-2019 18:17:42

Kalea Sprite

Kalea Sprite

Posts: 1,658 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Theos said :
~ Do you think merchanting/flipping/investing is a valid activity in Runescape? If no, why not when people do this regularly in the real world as a hobby or for investing in their future? ~
Humans are hardwired to trade things.

The problem is that the process of trading stuff results in market abuses as is reflected in the age old observation that money is the root of all evil.

In this game, the problems are similar although not as life threatening, it seems to be more of a problem about game balance, should an afk activity yield more profits than intense activities?

Flip/merch/investing is an afk activity, it's an activity that leeches wealth from the markets, it tends towards oligopolies that engage in "pump and dump" schemes that often result in literal scams.

Or why should flip/merch/investing yield more profits than slaying Airuts? 'o.0'
Something interesting happened.

15-Nov-2019 18:39:21

ELITE STACK
Mar Member 2014

ELITE STACK

Posts: 8,082 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Kalea Sprite said :
Theos said :
~ Do you think merchanting/flipping/investing is a valid activity in Runescape? If no, why not when people do this regularly in the real world as a hobby or for investing in their future? ~
Humans are hardwired to trade things.

The problem is that the process of trading stuff results in market abuses as is reflected in the age old observation that money is the root of all evil.

In this game, the problems are similar although not as life threatening, it seems to be more of a problem about game balance, should an afk activity yield more profits than intense activities?

Flip/merch/investing is an afk activity, it's an activity that leeches wealth from the markets, it tends towards oligopolies that engage in "pump and dump" schemes that often result in literal scams.

Or why should flip/merch/investing yield more profits than slaying Airuts?


1. Are you guaranteed to make profit when merching and can you try it urself to see? You need some wealth in order to merch.

2. Airuts are accessible to everyone. Look at how combat has been made easier over the years.

3. Airuts are afk. I need my blue charms back.

16-Nov-2019 11:58:40 - Last edited on 16-Nov-2019 11:59:27 by ELITE STACK

Kalea Sprite

Kalea Sprite

Posts: 1,658 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
ELITE STACK said :
1. Are you guaranteed to make profit when merching and can you try it urself to see? You need some wealth in order to merch.

2. Airuts are accessible to everyone. Look at how combat has been made easier over the years.

3. Airuts are afk.
1. Indeed, the more wealth, the more one will leech, from the markets, from other players, the result is that flipping, investing, merching is overpowered.

2. Certainly, there's a clear difference between a bankstanding type activity and a combat type activity. Or the rockertunity of mining, etc.

3. Afk Airuts are XP gains, they don't collect the drops, the more afk the less gps you make.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend afk Airuts.

Flipping, investing, merching often rides a "pump and dump" pattern, those leading the pump basically leech wealth from the community as they dump their entire collections into the fabricated pump.

But, it's not clear if milking people who are in a rush to sell low, or buy high, is an appropriate game mechanic. Why should flip, investing, merch activities yeild unparalleled bank gains?

Anyway, the oversaturation of tokens, etc., increases market competition which helps nerf the overpowered leeching activities of flip, merch, investing, etc.

So, it's probably a good thing that there is an oversaturation. 'o.0'
Something interesting happened.

16-Nov-2019 17:20:48

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