RuneScape Forum Archive | Let's talk about Armadyl.

Padomenes

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The things before were about protection from enemies that want to dominate and use 'strength' to oppress or control. The bad guy is not always some disorganized random force from the outside wanting to destroy stuff, too often the bad guy who wants to conquer and establish a 'hierarchy of dominance' gets overlooked in discussions.

There's indicators Zamorak's philosophy would result in a scenario where somebody with power uses that to secure dominance over others or that he himself wants to do it.

Saradomin would create a society sheltered from 'hierarchy of dominance' scenarios.

Plus with Zamorak it seems he's shown agreement with Bandos in the ways they think. Bandos was so far one of the closest gods to seem to want this kind of thing.

2nd age Zaros may have supported a hierarchy of dominance and struggles in an environment of rules, but the 6th age seems to not want to conquer.

Saradomin wants a voluntary and technocratic hierarchy designed to be mutually beneficial that protects people from 'hierarchies of dominance', while Armadyl is just cooperation and not necessarily with any.

06-Jul-2020 08:00:04 - Last edited on 06-Jul-2020 08:11:03 by Padomenes

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :

Saradomin would create a society sheltered from 'hierarchy of dominance' scenarios.

Nice fanfiction, meanwhile Saradomin's military strategy literally focuses on maximizing human casualties as meatshields to guard the races that he believes are more useful to him.

Meanwhile, Zamorakian society was described as egalitarian and allowed anyone to do a job so long as they were qualified. Saradominist society literally determined your status based on the race you were born as.

In what part of Saradomin's history has consent ever mattered to him? Saradomin uses propaganda to manufacture consent and makes brutal examples out of people who dare tell him no. Saradomin has so far been seen using a mix of fear tactics and psychological abuse to compel peoples to "consent" to his rule.

Askaroth was completely annihilated when the Naragi didn't want to fall in line, he then marched an army across the plane. Meanwhile, you have cases like Garlandia who was sentenced to a fate equivalent to a painful death not to mention the cultural humiliation and stigma that comes with losing her wings. He wanted to make a point? What an utter joke!

If the other natives really were as evil he claimed they were, he could've simply let her attempt to negotiate peace and get killed for her troubles. That would've accomplished the same point... unless of course he lied and that peace was actually a possibility which would've broken the Icyene's slavish dependency on him.

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

09-Jul-2020 17:44:02

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

A dominance hierarchy refers to a scenario in which you have a hierarchy where everyone is competing to exercise dominance (And thus control + authority), most of the time doing this through accumulation of power.

Something to note is that unless you are using it to free yourself or defend yourself, force or 'dog eat dog' scenarios is what creates hierarchies like that in the first place.

I mean unless its a writing flaw, Zamorak supporting conflict just for the sake of conflict seems to contradict that if he is 'anti-authority' since it is what creates 'authority' in the first place. The Empire of Zaros existed because of conflict and used it to expand, reinforce its hierarchies.

See how the Zamorakian red wizards handle their pupils in the quiz also, they are quite hierarchical 'bossy' pushovers and exactly what comes to mind when you think 'authority'. Contrast to the more Armadylean grey wizard option which genuinely is anti-authority.

'Freedom' besides freedom to 'compete for dominance' is not guaranteed if you don't have enough power, this is how it works in practice.

Well what about the archaeology lore in which

Saradomin was shown to believe in allowing interracial marriages?

In a scenario where a group of experts or elected experts plan everything out accordingly. Dominance based hierarchies are less likely to be a thing. I think a JMod lore said this is how Saradomin would handle things, but can't remember the quote.

You would ascend to power for the benefit of others instead of just yourself as a JMod said, which pretty much seems to indicate he supports technocracy.

I'm going just according to what others have said including some Armadylean players, that Zamorak's philosophy falls apart and you realize how pro-authority it ends up being upon analysis.

I mean it comes with no surprise since he was the 'Legatus Maximus' afterall, only he was upset the empire wasn't expanding as forcefully anymore.

10-Jul-2020 07:24:07 - Last edited on 10-Jul-2020 07:47:44 by Padomenes

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zamorak has never been about ensuring no order or society exists, it's always been about -and confirmed by jmods- doing things better. You have a great civilization, it could always be better, more prepared for disasters, etc. You're acting as if the end goal is anarchy, the end goal is simply to ensure that you're ready for contingencies and probable disasters.

The lore in archeology simply confirmed what I'd long suspected. Saradomin needed a way to continue stringing humans along. He needed something to point to in order to say "See? You're not just meatshields! Now get in the way of that line of fireballs so that the Icyene won't die."

Saradominist tactics do not value human lives, Saradomin's generals do not value human lives. Saradomin allowed the marriage between Efaritay and Ascertes likely for a mixture of sentimental and practical reasons. But make no mistake, its primary purpose was to keep the majority of humans from questioning their lot.

You claim that Saradominist society uses power for the majority, but literally no significant Saradominists do that. Saradomin himself sold out every sacrifice made towards the Stone of Jas for personal reasons, the magisters he handpicked on New Domina squabble for influence performing unethical experiments resulting in abominations that fit in among Xau-Tak's forces.

Zamorak was upset because the empire had become mired in corruption and stagnation. Ignoring the needs of the population with an apathetic emperor that seemed to ignore all the obligations he'd agreed to. It honestly sounds like exactly how Saradomin's societies turn out, invariably becoming stagnant in corruption and blaming their own mistakes on others. Quintessential example being the Blue Order; the members being responsible for stealing the work of a student coming to her for aid, sabotaging a ritual and blaming the resulting consequences on someone who had done literally nothing wrong.

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

11-Jul-2020 00:19:05

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Well then, this discusion ended from one god to another.
I allow it.

@Pado
Ehhh.. i don't even know where to start discusing with what you writed.
To many twists and turns.

So far, Giras points it properly out. Here and there.

Scombridus said :
-quote-
You know, there is quite a irony in what Saradomin says.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

15-Jul-2020 20:12:06

Apr

2018

ShidehTalmai

Posts: 467 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

This is a really nice Lore discussion thread really nice, nice arguments from everyone.
I really like the lore of Runescape, these god characters posses so many mysteries and character development.

Just a few quick comments id like to discuss too.

Its been said a lot across the game that Saradomin is selfrighteous that he sees himself as the ultimate good and order (Which Zaros points out that his narrow views of seeing the worlds a black and white have made him very arrogant)

And that most of the stuff and reasons behind Zamorak we have heard has been Saradomin propaganda.

I dont think Zamorak is evil, and its wrong and naive to pin him that just because Saradominist, the magnificent goody two shoes that cant break a plate nor hurt a fly says so.

Ive always thought Saradomin was too full of himself; he claims good and order, but once something seems to go to a slightly different road, he is suddendly the most badass cruelest determined individual ever, justifying anything he does by the greater good, oh look just like Zamorak and ever other god; at least Zamorak is honest by it, he and his followers will do whatever it takes for their own good. Saradomin will too, but will pretent he didnt do it, or that he had better reasons.

I feel Zamorak has taken some of its phylosopy from Zaros; while Zaros was: everyone can do great by themselves, however they might need a little push and guidance to get there.
Zamorak is: everyone can do great by themselves, whatever the means.

Basically Zaros guides us, Zamorak trust we get to where we have to.

And regarding Armadyl; i also thing he is still too young and inexperienced; he has flaws and is easily put apart by other gods, but thats becuse of him being too naive during the godwards, living a life of only peace and justice, trying to close up to war leads to a weak mentality that cant really face the everyday problems. I think Armadyl is learning, but he is still too much of a noob and needs a few years of experience.

29-Jul-2020 17:28:36

May

2022

Scombridus

Posts: 2,745 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Like Saradomin's elaboration on Zamorak that I pasted on page 6, Zamorak's flaw isn't the old RS2 version of him, but that his chaos would be a downward spiral of the strong dragging eachother down for a shot at power. There will be bursts of short term progress, but each step forward with Zamorak's philosophy comes after 3 steps back.

Also bringing up Armadyl's inexperience, from my understanding Zamorak is even worse is that regard. He's definitely a natural as a general but nobody to lead a society.

I like the philosophy Saradomin and Zaros throw back and forth that gods should ultimately be working together. Zaros wants Saradomin working for him and Saradomin wants Armadyl working for him, as they've both plainly stated.

11-Aug-2020 02:02:19

Edcy

Posts: 1,105 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Well now i once think i nearly held the staff when i was young, but it feeled very eerie and as if it was crying out to far away land for some kind of horrible nanny to barge and do horribles to you even if you feel like you didn't do anything wrong, oh horrifying horriflies however am i to put it in words.

I left the staff atop the hill i saw it and hovered on elsewhere... Lucky too that i had some intellect already back then, not to be pompous, but as in how one of those hawky creatures flying about near the hill afterwards, must of tote it was some ordinare branch to sit on huh, a folly made up ready for far-flung future, surely?

10-Sep-2020 22:51:40

Jan

2011

Nakamara1

Posts: 426 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Armadyl does come off as one of the more "human like" god compared to the others. It seems to me that he actively loathes the consequences of his ascension, immortality, and loss of his connection to his people. As with previous dialogue about his ascension, former families, and his people.

He has a deeper sense of self deprivation compared to the other gods and an absolute fear of losing the only thing that connects him to his Aviansie self. His fascination to the temporary loss of his godhood in Sliske's Endgame by molting, allowing the dragonkin to nearly burn him alive, or death's supposed glimpse of his death by ritual suicide gives hints to this burden.

He had relocated his people out of the inhospitable Abbinah, most of which to forinthry not for war but for colonizing. He absolutely didn't expect some of his people to still be on Abbinah when he returned.

Aviansie blood was gathered for vampires in Senntisten at the very least. Given the empires expansionist nature and its extent over forinthry, surely there would be a sizable Aviansie presence in Zarosian cities, possibly not even openly oppressive as blood tithes were given willingly to sate the vampires physical needs and Zaros did not openly rule. These cities would be a unique example of many different races coexisting as Armadyl would have wanted. Zamoraks ascension and razing of all zarosian cities would destroy these communities and especially settled Aviansies, he had to go to war to try to protect them.

The forging of the godsword was an attempt to quickly resolve the war to reduce bloodshed, however it is highly likely that Bandos sabotaged the effort to purposely prolong the war for glory creating further grudges. He didn't use his elder god weapons because he fears the result of their use.

I suspect Armadyl's hatred for Bandos goes deeper. Given the circumstances for Armadyl's ascension, he must've killed another god, with Abbinah limited resources that previous god could been very similar.

13-Feb-2022 03:36:44

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

^

Unless you are talking about it under Zarosian rule. Forinthry i dunno was probably a Zamorakian state/land after zammy's return, seems quite of a odd place to put floathing islands citys there even if they are a non-military value or structure. More so during a war.

Aviansie blood could probably also be of war prisoners/slaves captured during the ~~Roman~~ Zarosian expansion, or maybe those who left or maybe studied there for whats so ever reason.
Either way, we aren't to sure what life was mostly day in day out for the average non elite person that lived there. (feel free to correct and elightment me here about it)

Creating a god slaying blade for slashing and stabbing or a unknow versatile elder tool, which the latter could have been more usefull if Arma took his proper time to studie and learn with it.
Who knows how long he had it and he's still hasent figured it out? Shame.

Then again, if at worst the godsword is just a symbol of hypocritesy to someone like Armadyl.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

03-Mar-2022 20:16:38

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