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Kimi Mela

Kimi Mela

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Okay, let's take this one point at a time.

1a. Firstly, the Elder Siphon (staff) was used to kill Zaros, but it had side effects. Its nature was still uncertain. There was no telling how things could go awry. Second, Armadyl refuses to talk about how he ascended. We know it had to do with another elder artifact, however. In light of this, I find it highly likely that Armadyl created the godsword intending for Saradomin to use it, so that he would not have to face the guilt bothering him a second time.

1b. The second sealing of the staff was actually successful for centuries. I'm sure the Guardians and Armadyl had beefed up the weaknesses in their defenses after the first incident. It was likely the safest place to keep the staff at the time, too.

2. Bandos was Saradomin's ally. If Armadyl was going to ally with Saradomin, Bandos was part of the deal. Plus, their goals aligned at the time. Obviously they would end up clashing eventually, but at the time, the enemy of their enemy was their friend. It was a tactically sound maneuver, and should not be counted against him.

3. "His own stupidity"? Wow, biased much? Clearly nobody saw Zamorak blowing up Forinthry coming. That isn't a matter of stupidity. Now, I will not deny, Armadyl loses all his eloquence under pressure, and that shows in this conversation. His biggest flaw is how willing he is to blame himself. Zamorak is justifying permanently destroying a quarter of a continent and rendering a whole race extinct to save himself. That is just not okay. I don't understand how you could possibly say Armadyl is in the wrong here. Yes, he got the Aviansie involved in a war, but he did not sign them up to be nearly rendered extinct by a single explosive event. Nobody saw it coming, and nobody should have been expected to. Zamorak chose to destroy thousands to save himself. Armadyl's mistake was hesitating to kill him.

Cont...

05-May-2020 06:00:08

Kimi Mela

Kimi Mela

Posts: 46 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
4. The thing about the judgment passed on Zamorak is a minor gripe. They were at war, why bother correcting it if people justified it that way? And frankly, knowing Armadyl, he was probably deferring to Saradomin's wisdom, as he's much older and more experienced. You can fault him for trusting Saradomin too much, but that's about it.

5. Name one person killed by Armadyl other than Bandos. Now try and convince me Zamorak hasn't personally killed thousands. Zamorak kills because it makes people suffer, Armadyl kills because it saves the lives of the innocent. If Zamorak had his way, there would be no innocent. That's his philosophy, according to his entry in the god book you get from the herald jobs. He propagates suffering so that those that remain can grow strong. His philosophy is insane, pure evil, and a world no one would want to live in. Yeah, all the gods have blood on their hands, but tell me one deserves to die more than Zamorak.

Now, I can understand not having considered all the factors, but what makes me angry here is that you say "So there we have it readers. The truth." That sounds incredibly pretentious, especially since there are good explanations for everything you brought up, and some of it is basically just opinion. Maybe ask a question instead of declaring fact next time. Armadyl is not the hypocrite people make him out to be. Flawed, yes. They all are. But don't demonize and misrepresent him.

Like Seren did, by the way. Let's address Adventurerrr's point real quick. Bandos was absolutely going to use the weapon he was building. I can't believe people just forget the fact Bandos was the first one to start collecting anima to power his superweapon. Armadyl did what he did in response to that fact. And even were that not true, tell me with a straight face that there was the slightest chance Bandos wasn't going to use the thing to wage war on Gielinor. The slightest chance. Yeah, didn't think so.

05-May-2020 06:22:40 - Last edited on 05-May-2020 06:28:02 by Kimi Mela

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

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1 My point stands on the staff. Succes or not locking a powerful tool is bound and taunting for someone to take it.

2 Yes, lets forget that Bandos prolonged the god wars, but no, as long he helps in taking down Zamorak let bygones be bygones.
"tactically sound maneuver" No it was not.

3 lets see the stone was becoming unstable, what did they though zimzam would do? Create a fancy light show for a job well done?

Guess you havend never read nor heard about war enough to know it comes at a price, of extinction.

Zamorak's plan was to take them all down with him, even he didn't know how big the damage would be, which is also said by a mod (don't got the exact quote to back it up, but it was said. Then again mods aren't always the best for such things.)

If arma can't handel the stress then he shouldn't lead, nor wage a war.

4 Right...

5 Do his followers count? They do it in his name.
He probably killed others as well, we have yet to learn of them.

Zamorak doesn't just kill to make people suffer, there is more to his methods.
innocent, what makes someone innocent?

" His philosophy is insane, pure evil, and a world no one would want to live in."

1 You are joking right?
2 Evil is a matter of perspective. For me to elaborate on it, you are o so wrong.
3 Speak for your self. I don't say i want a world like it, but.. well doubt i can probably explain it all for to make you understand it.


"Yeah, all the gods have blood on their hands, but tell me one deserves to die more than Zamorak."
The world guardian for starters.

6 I stand by my conviction.

"Armadyl did what he did in response to that fact."

Which makes it al better right?

"And even were that not true, tell me with a straight face that there was the slightest chance Bandos wasn't going to use the thing to wage war on Gielinor. The slightest chance. Yeah, didn't think so."

I would be disappointed if Bandos didn't.

Beside war/battle is a natural thing.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

08-May-2020 22:54:15 - Last edited on 08-May-2020 23:09:29 by Derack

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Also here.

Armadyl: So, Saradomin is gathering his forces in preparation. Sliske really has got us all on tenterhooks hasn't he? We all know it's a trap. We all know it's a trick. We all know that he is dragging us ever closer to war, yet what choice do we have? If any one of us claims that stone, it can only lead to complete disaster. So here we all are, trying to claim it so that when war happens, we have the edge. And here I am, the great hypocrite , doing just the same. Wanting to be the first to get that stone so other, more dangerous gods don't. Imagine if Zamorak got the stone again...the countless number he would slaughter. I cannot allow that to happen again. At least this time I have learned enough to face this battle without forcing my people to risk themselves. I need only a few close allies for the coming conflict. If there is to be mortal danger, then I shall face it. I know enough to know that my people will survive without me. They have done so once already. They can do so again.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

08-May-2020 22:54:55 - Last edited on 08-May-2020 22:55:21 by Derack

Padomenes

Padomenes

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The reason why Armadyl or Saradomin alike would have sided with Bandos over Zamorak is for this reason.

Zamorak wanted to seize the empire under an 'openly violent military dictatorship' and conquer while Bandos just wanted to prolong conflict, and would have been against conquering others or an empire if it meant he could keep having wars.

He didn't want Zamorak to have his empire across Gielinor and neither did Armadyl or Saradomin for that matter.

Zamorak was a more imminent threat in having secured the loyalty of the empire with armies ready to conquer others and establish a different 'order', although many Zarosians also became Saradominists too.

Bandos was just an unhinged 'chaotic evil' psychopath that wanted to fight constantly and Saradomin or Armadyl wouldn't have seen them as much of a threat as Zamorak at the time was. They knew sooner or later he 'just wouldn't have lasted in a real fight'.

11-May-2020 16:24:32 - Last edited on 11-May-2020 17:23:15 by Padomenes

Kimi Mela

Kimi Mela

Posts: 46 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Like before, a lot of this is coming down to your own personal view and bias.

1. Armadyl didn't want the staff to be used for evil. Locking it away might make it tempting to others, but how else could he have kept it safe?

2. "Let bygones be bygones"? That is not what happened. The saying is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and once that enemy is gone, they can deal with him. This isn't a matter of bygones or forgiveness, but of pragmatism. Zamorak and Bandos were the strongest gods- Bandos being the highest tier, and Zamorak having the biggest forces. Going up against both was suicide. Yes. It. Was. Tactically. Sound.

3. That was in the very last moments! Armadyl didn't have any inkling of what was going to happen when he signed up for the war. By the time the stone was growing unstable, it was too late to pull out. And war doesn't cause extinction. Name one that has. The god wars wouldn't have, if it weren't for the Stone of Jas blowing up. So yeah, Armadyl wasn't signing the Aviansie up for extinction.

5. You've got to be joking. Dying in someone's name doesn't mean you have killed them. We are explicitly talking about murder here, intentional deaths. Twisting the deaths of Armadyleans just because they wore his colors is dishonest, and not a valid response. Try again, Zamorakian. And yes, Zamorak does murder people to make them suffer, read the book from the god emissaries, the part where Zamorak erupts a volcano on top of a village. No, I am not kidding, yes evil is a matter of perspective but you're the one calling Armadyl evil here, so that's no a valid defense. And I stand by what I said, nobody wants a world of perpetual suffering. Anyone who does would be locked in a mental institution.

6. "War is a natural thing" yes, but Bandos actively chose to propagate it, which isn't natural. I can't believe what I'm reading here. You wouldn't be saying these things if we were talking about real people, and real deaths.

13-May-2020 17:54:24

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Padomenes said :
- Ehh.. Zamorak doesn't even like dictator's, just look at what he did with Zaros and does with Saradomin.

Not many (ex)Zarosians followed Zamorak after the former's "death".

The details of this philosophy are well known amongst the Zamorakians and need not be repeated here. As more and more humans joined the rebel forces, 'chaos' became a rallying flag for them. Many came to us because they were fleeing or rejecting some aspect of authority within the empire, and a philosophy that prized individuality over structure, society or government was very appealing to them. In many ways anti- authoritarianism became a byword of Zamorakianism - an irony if ever there was one. Over time this developed into a very unhealthy anarchism, that said that any attempt to organise or cooperate or accomplish anything was reprehensible. - Part of Lamistard's memory

Did many Zarosians joined Sara or were they just Ex Saradominist's who got enslaved/conquered? Unless you got proof.

Doubt it. It took 3 gods to take out Zamorak, i highly doubt those goody goof shoes could take out Bandos. Sara "might" pull it out in a real fight, but Arma...
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

14-May-2020 20:00:04

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Kimi Mela said :
-

Personal bias is what attract the crowd.
I say my view is more if not quite spot on.

1 For one, kept it close to by him self. If it is true like Mod Jack made it in his own self made comic of "The betrayel", the staff can block some/all of any kind of divine attack.

Use it for evil? He can trust Saradomin but not him self with a pointy stick? Quite laughable.
There are many ways he could have used the staff for "good" but seems he was to damn lazzy or cowardly to figure it out, it seems...

2 I don't think Zamorak's forces were all that strong. But i gotte check some/a scource to be sure, if i i'm not lazzy enough to check it out.

I dunno but comparing of the big 4 i'm pretty sure Bandos is a bigger risk/threat then Zimzam.

3 Saradomin and the Naragi.
Not completely by his own hands or forces, but he started the chain of events.

I admit extinction was a bit farfeched by me.
But my point is is that Arma put them into the war, if he trully wanted peace he should have not fought in the war, but he did anyway and dares blame others for the actions and the consequenses.

5 I say it is a valid response. And i prefer to be called a Zimzamian.

I'm well aware of the book's contents.
Makes them suffer, yes. But for there own growth, willing or unwilling. Necessary? Perhaps not, but usefull nothing less.
Be dammed if the forces of nature cause chaos or curse someone else who does it intentally. It goes either way, just a different way to point your fingers at.

I never called Arma evil, a (idiot) hypocrit yes.
Shouldn't we all be?

6 You don't have to believe, it's all there if one opens there eyes.

Ehh. yes and no. But that's going to much a political/religos direction, which is best to be avoided on the forums, but can never be helped.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

14-May-2020 20:32:08 - Last edited on 14-May-2020 20:34:14 by Derack

Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Derack said :
Padomenes said :
- Ehh.. Zamorak doesn't even like dictator's, just look at what he did with Zaros and does with Saradomin.

Not many (ex)Zarosians followed Zamorak after the former's "death".

The details of this philosophy are well known amongst the Zamorakians and need not be repeated here. As more and more humans joined the rebel forces, 'chaos' became a rallying flag for them. Many came to us because they were fleeing or rejecting some aspect of authority within the empire, and a philosophy that prized individuality over structure, society or government was very appealing to them. In many ways anti- authoritarianism became a byword of Zamorakianism - an irony if ever there was one. Over time this developed into a very unhealthy anarchism, that said that any attempt to organise or cooperate or accomplish anything was reprehensible. - Part of Lamistard's memory

Did many Zarosians joined Sara or were they just Ex Saradominist's who got enslaved/conquered? Unless you got proof.

Doubt it. It took 3 gods to take out Zamorak, i highly doubt those goody goof shoes could take out Bandos. Sara "might" pull it out in a real fight, but Arma... The Temple Knights were and you for a large amount of infernal speaking ones later on.

How do you explain the Zamorakian afterlife then or the way Drakan handled Morytania and Zemouregal did New Varrock?

‘Disorder’ and ‘Anarchy’ are not necessarily violent either and just requires defiance of any authority or norm, but Zamorak seems to support others using violence to enforce ‘unstable dictatorships’ in a neverending cycle of ‘full circle revolutions’ until the ladder of power is burnt for good? Also Robes of Subjugation lore + paranoia?

The only way this can end is if the ones who rise deal with it through mind control, brainwashing, the Drakan way or by turning their subjects into zombies in practice.

16-May-2020 19:19:28 - Last edited on 16-May-2020 19:21:41 by Padomenes

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