RuneScape Forum Archive | Let's Divide the Years by 10

AttilaSquare

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@Xiaoqing:

I think that's a fair objection. I will make a counterargument, but I make it softly, since I'm sympathetic to your point. First, Gielinor has a kind of two-fold life in the current lore. To humans, it has been around from time immemorial. But for the gods, Mahjarrat, Vyre, Ilujan*a, and Icyene, it is a newfound world. A division of years might bridge this gap.

A sense of Gielinor as timeless might be preserved among humans, since our experience of the world is mediated by myths. It is likely that many myths among humans were lost during the Godwars, so that many human communities today think of the Godwars as long ago and have little cultural memory which reaches further back. (I would like to see some more lore for the 4th age especially, since no cataclysm should have disrupted our cultural memories.)

Other human populations, whose myths and cultures endured the Godwars, such as the Menaphites and Fremennik ( and Asgarnians according to some of my headcannon ), might experience the history of Gielinor as very long but also as bounded - bounded by tales of their arrival in this world. It is furthermore possible that these cultures have preserved a wealth of tales from their worlds of origin. But after the last 1,200ish years, it would take a lot of stories from the old worlds to make them feel like they just moved in. I don't think we have reason to believe that a sufficient number of homeworld myths have been preserved among humans to produce this experience of Gielinor. It should feel like home.

19-Jul-2016 00:48:20 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 00:51:10 by AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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@Xiaoqing:

Regarding the forgetting of gods, I think I can propose some explanations. If Guthix sought to be forgotten, he might have avoided attention for the last decades or even centuries before his slumber, and he might have discouraged any traditions which memorialized him. The lore tells us that the Saradominists and maybe the Zamorakians too sought to suppress the knowledge of Zaros, so it is believable that it might have been largely wiped out. The dragonkin have perhaps not been forgotten; at the same time, perhaps humans knew little of these destructive beasts in the first place - just like the Mahjarrat who invaded now and then.

I don't know if we can easily compare our historical knowledge today of Napolean, Alexander, Hammurabi, etc. to the cultural memories of Gielinor's human populations. Today, as opposed to just about any time before, we have access to the cultural memories of nearly all the populations on the earth, through new technologies, the development of history as a scientific discipline, and sophisticated systems of state education. In ages past, our knowledge of the world would have been part history, part legend, and part myth, and handed down by our local communities. Today, legend and myth have almost disappeared, as well as many local traditions.

In the case of Gielinor, I think it's believable that historical knowledge should be lost. But at the same time, I think we should see more among the human populations of Gielinor in terms of legend and myth. I think this is a fault of the Jmods' development of the lore thus far - they focus far too much on the eye-witness historical accounts of immortal characters and hardly at all tap into the genres which serve the cultural memory of human populations.

19-Jul-2016 00:48:49 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 00:53:19 by AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

Posts: 1,792 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@N7Spongy & Xiaoqing:

I think we could negotiate on exactly how to divide the years. At times I am uncomfortable with a division by 10, because it doesn't give much time for all of the events of the 2nd age; but at other times I enjoy the challenge of developing such densely packed lore.

19-Jul-2016 00:49:30 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 00:53:44 by AttilaSquare

Eren Lapucet

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This would be an interesting idea, but just note that gods and the like refer to things lasting thousands of years:

"I have not known Death to abandon his duty. Not once in thousands of years..."
"This is the most pivotal event to have occurred for thousands of years. The consequences will shape a new future."
-Icthlarin, MPD

"He [Zamorak] walked the same path himself, many thousands of years ago. He will know better than anyone if Sliske has ascended."
-Kril, MPD

"Many thousands of years ago the Stone of Jas belonged to me, but when Guthix banished the gods from Gielinor it was lost. As years became centuries the Stone exchanged hands many times. None were worthy of its power. " -Zamorak, DaT

"This place has been my work - and my home - for thousands of years now. Many believed it to be my tomb."
"Epiphany? Oh, yes. I knew that after thousands of years whilst the Mahjarrat have grown stronger, the Chelon-Mah would have diminished."
-Bilrach, DaT

"I have laid eyes upon thousands of years' worth of faces. Why should I recognize yours?"
"Of course I know of his plan. I have always been his closest advisor, a few thousand years of absence would not change that."
-Hazeel, DaT I'm too Unaligned to have a forum signature.

19-Jul-2016 03:50:26 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 05:58:21 by Eren Lapucet

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

AttilaSquare said :
Two things always bothered me about this account. First, who's ever heard of a war that lasted 4,000 years? I could believe that four millennia saw lots of warfare, but we humans would subdivide those millennia into shorter conflicts and wars. Such a timeline is simply not human.

That's kinda the point: it isn't human. The war was fueled by soldiers from other worlds, and the beings in charge of the armies and societies lived lives far longer than humans (the gods, the mahjarrat, the icyene, demons, etc...). Being in charge, it was these races and beings who kept the records of and about the war, and it was they who classified the 4000 years as being one war (the humans just regurgitated what they were told, specific battles being lost to time with the general events becoming legend).

AttilaSquare said :
Second, compared to ages lasting millennia, how could the 5th age deserve the title of an age? All we did was find a new magical technology and expand our holdings around the world. How can such short-term success constitute an age while the twists and turns of 4,000 years of warfare constitute just one age and receive just one title, i.e. "The Godwars"?

Difference of who's in charge. Keep in mind the other name of the 5th age: The Age of Humans. As you already pointed out, a human timeline tends to be divided into much shorter intervals. Having become and still remaining Gielinor's dominant race, the humans kept the history as they saw fit (although I do question just how they were able to keep track of the length of the 4th age).

19-Jul-2016 04:26:18 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 04:30:58 by Hguoh

Dec

2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ere* saved me the trouble of having to squash this. There are simply FAR TOO MANY in-game references to things taking place over the span of thousands of years for this to be plausible. Sources ranging from Mahjarrat, Demons, Humans, Ascended Gods, Transcendent Gods, etc.

Aside from that, I had a few personal gripes.
First and foremost, you kept going back to something along the lines of it not being conceivable by the human mind. What you don't realize is, it's not supposed to be. These are MEANT to be events and beings beyond comprehension of a mere human. The Mahjarrat and the Gods are meant to be too wise, old, and powerful for most human beings to be able to understand. The fact that the World Guardian even CAN comprehend some of this proves that we're beyond any mere human.
Second, you seem to define an Age only by length of time. That isn't how it works in RuneScape. With each new Age there has been something that ended.. and something that began.
First-Second: The Age of Guthix being active on Gielinor ended as he went into slumber; Following almost immediately thereafter, other young gods begin to arrive in Gielinor. Perhaps most noteworthy among them, Zaros.
Second-Third: The Second Age was defined highly by the Zarosian Empire. The Second Age ended very shortly after Zaros was seemingly killed by Zamorak; not long later, the God Wars began.
Third-Fourth: This should be obvious. Zamorak gets cornered in Forinthry and uses the Catalyst to make a massive explosion. The Anima Mundi cries out and Guthix wakes up. Guthix banishes the other Young Gods one by one, ending the God Wars and returning to slumber after mourning; This is the first Age where not a single Young God was active on Gielinor. Shortly after, races stop being violent and nomadic, and start to form kingdoms. A

World Guardian

must learn to find

Balance

in themselves.
Only then can they

Control

themselves and forge their own

Fate .

19-Jul-2016 04:43:34

Dec

2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Fourth-Fifth: After quite a long time, the Age of races like Dwarves and Gnomes staying hidden from Humans comes to an end. Furthermore, the shortage of knowledge of things referred to as 'runes' also comes to an end; Rune Essence is rediscovered and Humankind begins to flourish as Gielinors "dominant" race. The world continues to be free of direct interference from the Gods, though some find other ways to be present.
Fifth-Sixth: Now this one shouldn't need explanation. Guthix's chambers are finally found after he went to sleep thousands of years ago. With the death of Guthix, a whole new age begins. The world of Gielinor being untouchable by the gods has ended, and an Age of uncertainty and constant stress begins.
Thirdly, there's really no need for it. I don't know how else to explain this, there just isn't. All of the things you mentioned as benefits have been addressed in my previous statements.

Sorry, but personally I don't think I'd ever be able to accept this change. A

World Guardian

must learn to find

Balance

in themselves.
Only then can they

Control

themselves and forge their own

Fate .

19-Jul-2016 04:54:23

Sir Ike

Posts: 112 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I somewhat agree. You know, the timeline above me doesn't really make sense in the span of thousands of years. Those are far too few events to account for that amount of time.

There aren't enough crypts and ruins in the world to account for thouuusands of years, and somehow a few that have been around since the 2nd age aren't disintegrated. Slayer tower or Viggorra's fortress for example is still looking good for such an old bird. Surely...some civilization would have quarried it for the resources by now if not destroyed by natural causes.
Or even Ghorrock. Yes I realize it's in a frozen place, but the wooden doors are still there! At least the iron fittings should have rusted away to nothing.

What the hell were people doing for 4000 years in the 1st age? Replacing druid huts and breeding? And supposedly Guthix was awake that whole time, what was he doing, staring at a cave wall? We at least need more development for what was going on then. It just seems unlikely that an entire population stayed exactly the same in power and technology for that much time.

The 2nd age makes a bit more sense. I imagine it would take quite some time to build an empire, but it does seem that given Zaros' magnificent abilities he could accelerate its establishment significantly.

So let me sum up my thoughts. I somewhat agree with the idea of the proposal because
1. Far too few recorded events and advancements for such a vast span of time
2. Not enough remains of past civilizations
-the 'great' Zarosian empire had what, like less than 10 small forts?
-and senntisten, the wonder*us jewel was roughly the size of the sanguinesti region...
really Zaros, that's the best you can do with 2000 years worth of time to work? I'd expect
something like Asgard in the opening scene of Thor

19-Jul-2016 06:15:59 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 06:26:50 by Sir Ike

Sir Ike

Posts: 112 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

One last thing I'd like to mention, some poor character writing for Saradomin. Us world guardians (young mortals, a spec in time), here on the lore forum, have acquired more wisdom in the last 5 years of our lives than the GOD of wisdom has in the last 10,000...TEN THOUSAND! You'd think an old wise codger like him would have dealt with his human nature by now, but nope. I find the character of Saradomin to be quite unbelieveable. He behaves more like a middle-aged king than an ancient god of wisdom.

19-Jul-2016 06:32:18 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 06:33:12 by Sir Ike

Nov

2023

Lego Miester

Posts: 35,339 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

It'd be weird to change the lore this late. Part of how they kept the war going on so long is they had literally planets upon planets worth of soldiers. That and they had Bandos, who actively manipulated the sides to keep the war going as long as possible, even when they had barely anyone of fighting capability. (the "song from before the war" story)

Sir Ike said :
One last thing I'd like to mention, some poor character writing for Saradomin. Us world guardians (young mortals, a spec in time), here on the lore forum, have acquired more wisdom in the last 5 years of our lives than the GOD of wisdom has in the last 10,000...TEN THOUSAND! You'd think an old wise codger like him would have dealt with his human nature by now, but nope. I find the character of Saradomin to be quite unbelieveable. He behaves more like a middle-aged king than an ancient god of wisdom.

You only learn from your mistakes when you are willing to. Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
OSRS Lore: Xeric
Slepe Tight - Slepe Lore

19-Jul-2016 08:08:39 - Last edited on 19-Jul-2016 08:09:20 by Lego Miester

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Let's Divide the Years by 10