RuneScape Forum Archive | In Defense Of Pringles

Dec

2023

Cthris

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@ Uni

You took a long time on this thread, and you certainly thought a great deal about the topic, so good job on you

However I do not agree with what you are saying. Personally I do not believe that there is any true chaos in the world.

In our real world, the universe is governed by mathematical laws, equations if you will, not dissimilar to 2 + 2 = 4. You cannot break these laws. Believing that these laws could be broken is the same thing as believing 2 + 2 + 3. Anyways everything that happens occurs because of how something else happened in the past. Every event is determinate on the event before it, so by proxy all events are determinate on the very first event. With that very first event came all the instructions and directions for the entire universe. This is called Causation theory. The universe is the way it is through the cause and effect of a single event, which happened even before the Big Bang.

This means nothing actually happens at random, even the choices people make. Thinking can be stripped down to synaptic impulse (basically an electric current) running through biological wires, and different mediums. Electricity is heavily reliant on causation; cause and effect causes the electricity to act the way it does, which makes your ideas, and choices. There is no chaos, heck even free will is questionable. Is it really free will when you have been destined to do something for billions of years?

Obliviously since mankind cannot see these instructions, it appears like chaos. Chaos is simply an illusion. (Though it is worth mentioning that we can never know these instructions. Physicist state that you cannot look at such instructions without changing them)

Chaos doesn't truly exist. It is merely a illusion in the minds of beings who through the very fabric of the universe will never be able to fathom their destinies.

Part 1

02-May-2015 14:24:09 - Last edited on 02-May-2015 14:48:07 by Cthris

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Part 2

So perhaps you misunderstood Saradomin's intentions. It appears you believe Saradomin wants to create a world where the illusion of chaos is stamped out, a seemingly orderly world for everyone. Perhaps a 1984 type world, but times a thousand fold, with no rebellious thoughts, and no chance of disorder.

But what if that is not what Saradomin is going for. Perhaps he simply wants to remove the shroud from his eyes. So that he is able to understand and interpret these instructions that continue to shape the universe. Essentially become omniscient. (While this certainly can never happen in the real world thanks physics, physics are much more relaxed in the Runescae universe)

By doing so he would indeed be destroying chaos in a sense. I also suspect by learning of the instructions, he will be able to alter them to his preference. This would go hand in hand with his philosophy on wisdom and knowledge. He is the self described God of those aspects.

Whether becoming omniscient is a feasible thing in runescape, I do not know, even the Elder Gods are not omniscient. But jagex has stated that they were created by something, perhaps that something was absolute and omniscient so maybe it is not impossible with enough power.

In conclusion, Saradomin is not necessarily a paradox, and his goals are perhaps obtainable.

I hope this makes sense, if you want me to clarify anything, please do.

02-May-2015 14:36:54 - Last edited on 02-May-2015 14:41:11 by Cthris

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Cthris said :
In our real world, the universe is governed by mathematical laws, equations if you will, not dissimilar to 2 + 2 = 4. You cannot break these laws. Believing that these laws could be broken is the same thing as believing 2 + 2 + 3. Anyways everything that happens occurs because of how something else happened in the past. Every event is determinate on the event before it, so by proxy all events are determinate on the very first event. With that very first event came all the instructions and directions for the entire universe. This is called Causation theory. The universe is the way it is through the cause and effect of a single event, which happened even before the Big Bang.

Ahem, what about chaos theory or Schrodinger's cat? Yes, everything obeys the laws of reality, but that does not mean everything is predetermined by past events or can even be completely predicted by utilization of those laws.

02-May-2015 15:14:12

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :

Ahem, what about chaos theory or Schrodinger's cat? Yes, everything obeys the laws of reality, but that does not mean everything is predetermined by past events or can even be completely predicted by utilization of those laws.

Chaos theory states that an action can have an effect that is almost impossible to predict.

Schrodinger's cat says that you cannot look at these instructions without fundamentally altering them

I never said that it is possible to predict what is predetermined in the real world, I actually specifically said you cannot. Like electrons, the "instructions" cannot be "looked" at without altering them.

Of course this could be different in the Universe of Runescape. Seeing as you can even destroy potential energy; physics are really not a thing here.

Yes some quantom physicist theorize, key word theorize, that on the quantum level things do not always follow cause and effect. However many do not.

I also never said that there is a intellectual force behind the first event of our real world, whatever force that may have happened to create the first event could have had no knowledge about what it was creating.

You could even argue that this event was the only true chaotic, random thing to have ever happened.

Which does prove this part of Uni's post

However order cannot be created out of nothing, there must first be chaos present to create order from it. You cannot create order without chaos being there first* *** 1

However from then on the universe had instruction, and followed a sequence of events that were destined to have happened from the moment that first event happened.

02-May-2015 15:49:04 - Last edited on 02-May-2015 15:51:16 by Cthris

Hazeel

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Ascertes said :
1. Perhaps you should go back and redo the quest or watch a video or something...because if you actually paid attention, you would know that's not true. Perien had little to nothing to do with the teleportation magic, therefore yes, the knowledge of teleportation was lost.

Maybe you should read what I said. I played along with your little crazy theory and in this one sentence you both claim it's true and it's not true. If the knowledge is lost, why does teleportation still work with the abyss and not some Saradominist dimension?

Ascertes said :
2. Quotes or it doesn't count, and good luck finding them.

Which quotes? The ones with the Red Order warning everyone that leaving the ritual would be catastrophic or the ones with the Blue Order saying "Nope, we don't care if this helps mankind and helps cure disease! We don't work with demons!"

Ascertes said :
3. You can still follow a religion without being religious.

That's an oxymoron. It's like saying you can be left wing without being a democrat or you can be an Christian without following God. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-May-2015 16:13:56

Ascertes

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Hazeel said :
Snip dawg

1. Because the abyss is still what is used in tel*portation...This doesn't mean that the knowledge was somehow magically preserved, especially since Perien had nothing to do with teleportation magic. It's not that hard of a concept to wrap your head around that it was rediscovered.

2. Quotes about me freaking about Forinthry. Again, good luck finding them.

3. You can be a left winger without being a Democrat...Or did we forget that other countries in the world exist that don't use the Democrat/Republican dynamic? Or maybe we forgot that you can be more moderate or more extreme than Democrats...Hmm. And it is very easy to follow a religion without being religious. Like me, for example. I believe in a higher power, but do I go to church every Sunday? Nope. Never been to church for a service. I am not religious, but still follow a religion.

Try to keep up, Hazeel. -Ascertes, King of all the Hallowlands and the Everchosen of Saradomin.

03-May-2015 05:50:45

Ascertes

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Derack said :
Ascertes said :

2. Every order had a hand in the tower's destruction and to deny this is literal epitome of cherry picking and/or slander.
thats funny, last time we discused it you said that the blame was all on red.

Nope. I have always maintained that it was all the order's faults. The only times I go after the reds are when you blow out your aorta about how "EVIL THOSE BLUE WZARDS ARE ERMAHGERHD!"

So, no. It is every order's fault. How long have you been around me and still haven't figured that out?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, you do have a penchant for stereotyping Saradominists to be intolerant, myself included. -Ascertes, King of all the Hallowlands and the Everchosen of Saradomin.

03-May-2015 05:52:41 - Last edited on 03-May-2015 05:55:08 by Ascertes

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ascertes said :
1. Because the abyss is still what is used in tel*portation...This doesn't mean that the knowledge was somehow magically preserved, especially since Perien had nothing to do with teleportation magic. It's not that hard of a concept to wrap your head around that it was rediscovered.

This requires you to accept several things.

1) That even though teleportation has eluded them for centuries, they managed to find it twice in a short time span.

2) BOTH times they just happened to choose the abyss as the dimension that was connected to teleportation.

3) These wizards who ban people from the tower just for talking to the demon somehow managed to communicate with him and realize he kept the key to the abyss.

4) The wizards were actually willing to cooperate with the demon despite, again, throwing a fit whenever demons are involved in anything.

5) The wizards wanted to use the abyss so bad that they were willing to cooperate with the demon.

6) These wizards somehow forgot what the demon's purpose was after rediscovering it.

Ascertes said :
And it is very easy to follow a religion without being religious. Like me, for example. I believe in a higher power, but do I go to church every Sunday? Nope. Never been to church for a service. I am not religious, but still follow a religion.

Religion:

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

So you worship a God...but don't follow a God. That's...interesting. Nothing more to say, so I'll drop it at that. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

03-May-2015 06:10:40

Ascertes

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Hazeel said :
Snip dawg

1.
1a. Yep.

1b. There actually is a specific reason for the abyss. But of course you wouldn't know that because you space barred

1c. The wizards of the old tower =/= the wizards of the new tower. Like you said, it's a lip service. Most of them are scholars, not priests. The religious ties are not as strong as they used to be...it's very plain to see.

1d. I don't recall the demon they hold captive to be directly responsible for its rediscovery. I may be wrong, would have to go look at the transcript.

1e. Refer to 1d.

1f. Refer to 1d.

3. I really don't understand what makes you think you're either atheistic or a jingoistic religious extremist. Black and white thinking is you what rail on Saradominists for constantly, yet here you are using it...I say hypocrite? Double standards really aren't appealing or back up your argument Hazeel, try to find a more solid talking point. -Ascertes, King of all the Hallowlands and the Everchosen of Saradomin.

03-May-2015 06:45:20 - Last edited on 03-May-2015 06:46:13 by Ascertes

Ancientm3ge

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Hazeel said :

In both cases it was a conscious choice. Zamorak knew what would happen to Forinthry and the Blue Order knew what would happen to the tower.

The difference?

Zamorak blew up Forinthry in hopes of removing three tyrants from the world. His followers were already dead.

The more I read your posts the more I am convinced you haven't paid any attention to the quests.

1} Zamorak over loaded the stone but even according to the mods he didn't know he would nuke the whole continent. He wanted to use its power to destroy the opposing gods but had no way of knowing the full extent of what would happen.

2* Zamorak's followers were not all dead, Bandos said his armies were surrounded but nothing alludes to them all being dead as you stated here without evidence. They did die however by Zamorak's own hand when he overloaded the stone. It would be wise to stop attacking the blue wizards for 'killing their friends' when you follow a god that obliterated all life in Forinthry, even those loyal to him.

Enlightenment is coming

03-May-2015 07:10:55

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