RuneScape Forum Archive | Saradomin and Sliske's Endgame

Vardan

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Padomenes said :
CD_Paladin_C said :
All that Q&A did was remind us that Saradomin is a sociopath. All you do in your posts is remind us you undoubtably one yourself at best irl and the fact you like to judge others to make yourself feel good.

"Oh my gosh, why didn't Saradomin let the creatures kill all his icyene?! Such sociopath."

It's time to get a life and find something else better to do. You know go to the gym or something, find a sport you like etc to lose a couple of pounds. If you believe your anti-social personality disorder obstructs you from doing that then I would suggest you get some meds to help you deal with it.
At the very least Paladin stop bumping your own damn threads. That's like liking your own Facebook posts or upvoting your own sad reddit threads. You got your replies now go back to hashtag campaigning with the other keyboard warriors on plebbit

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

18-Jan-2017 06:33:18

Hazeel

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Padomenes said :
Also not his fault if he didn't think of the methods you suggested.

Coming up with a completely irrational and heinous plan absolutely is his fault and displays poor leadership abilities.

Padomenes said :
How do you know

Because he's shown obvious intolerance to anything that fundamentally disagrees with him.

Padomenes said :
Driving to extinction isn't necessarily genocide

That is practically the definition of genocide.

Padomenes said :
When you want to invade a territory and there are hostile forces that arise what do you expect to do?

Leave peacefully? I mean assuming, after all, you are someone who preaches peace.

Padomenes said :
Heck Lord Drakan hunted down and killed Zarosians for Zamorak who refused to convert.

Yep. He was overthrowing the establishment and working to create a new form of leadership. And I'm pretty damn sure he knew what he was doing too.

Padomenes said :
Saradomin had no interest in destroying all traces of the Zarosian Empire

But that's exactly what he did.

Padomenes said :
What about the Zarosian humans among the mainstream population who chances are converted and became Saradominists

Even if they exist, I don't care because that has nothing to do with what I said. The issue I pointed out isn't intention, it's that Saradomin is incapable of recognizing when he's committed genocide or tried to enslave others.

Padomenes said :
Zamorak and his followers also hated Saradomin

I don't care.

Padomenes said :
compare him to a continuation of "the ways of Zaros" when they weren't really alike
Padomenes said :
Saradomin agreed with Zaros' position on order Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

18-Jan-2017 06:44:25 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2017 06:45:52 by Hazeel

Padomenes

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Hazeel said :
That is practically the definition of genocide.

Leave peacefully? I mean assuming, after all, you are someone who preaches peace. Genocide requires the intent of completely wiping them out, extinction is altogether a different matter. If a species became extinct due to over-hunting or got wiped out by the effects of war then is it "genocide"?

He preaches holding your ground so nope can't leave and if you do it means you forfeit the goal to let somebody else take it. Saradomin does not believe in "turn the other cheek", something which has never worked and never will in history. He had a goal to achieve being order.

Killing people who attack your troops violently is a part of all conquests. You might as well say all conquests are a form of "genocide", something people and civilizations have been doing since they existed?

No what you want to do is for Saradomin to do that and let his followers be killed, he is the god of order and that is about doing the opposite. Stepping in and doing it for the others so they do not have to themselves.

Say this happens to an officer walking in with troops: "We come in pe- *gets killed by crossbow bolt from hostile member of population*" ? In that case you really should expect retaliation. Irl they would send full backup.

18-Jan-2017 06:52:54 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2017 07:36:07 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
Saradomin had no interest in destroying all traces of the Zarosian Empire and only sought to become its new ruler to fix things. He only wanted to replace the religion with his and that was it, fill in Zaros' role for himself after Zamorak defeated him. Saradomin agreed with Zaros' position on order perhaps but only thought that he could not lead. He sought to liberate it under his rule which was better then the old order even Zaros himself admits.

Yes, how dare those nasty Zarosians not roll over and allow an invading force to conquer them.

And what a way of not wanting to destroy all traces of the Zarosian Empire by just about scouring it's existence from the annals of history.

Padomenes said :
It was an extremely dangerous and really really bad situation as mentioned. People can take desperate measures in desperate times. Also not his fault if he didn't think of the methods you suggested. That's all down to the writing.

The self-declared god of wisdom didn't think to let Garlandia demonstrate her own folly rather than acting so as to make himself look like the bad guy and turn her into a martyr? Forgive me for both not being shocked and not wanting to prostrate myself when in his presence.

18-Jan-2017 06:54:32

Padomenes

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Hguoh said :
Yes, how dare those nasty Zarosians not roll over and allow an invading force to conquer them.

And what a way of not wanting to destroy all traces of the Zarosian Empire by just about scouring it's existence from the annals of history. What about if the occupation was not going to be as violent at first but some of them do react violently and make it turn so by escalating the situation? Or those humans among the population of the former Zarosian empire who may have hated Zamorak's ways and welcomed, supported Saradomin's rule/ways among the population?

It is pretty dumb if you think about it to escalate what was originally a more peaceful/less extreme occupation by violently attacking and killing some of their troops. Officer: "We come in pe- *gets killed by crossbow bolt*" You really think they wouldn't retaliate if somebody did that?

Never said that, when you have a goal to occupy and bring your system to others. There are bound to be conflicting interests and some people are going to uprise with resistance, resulting in a situation where you must destroy them first or they will destroy you. This is the nature of all conquest/annexations and it always happens this way, there will be people among the population who will fight your soldiers regardless of whether your Saradomin or not.

Think of the people who died fighting back when the Zarosian Empire was expanding?

He wanted to keep the civilization/society and technology but credit it to Saradominism instead. Take the Zarosian symbolism off their stuff then put Saradominist symbols in place.

Zamorak was also ordering Zaros' remaining followers to be hunted down and killed as shown with Drakan. Saradomin would have only "killed" the ones who went up in arms to do a violent uprising then attacked the occupiers. Conquest is something people and civilizations have been doing since they existed.

18-Jan-2017 06:59:28 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2017 07:15:20 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Pads, it turned violent and Saradomin perpetuated it. Sure, some of the Empire's population may have welcomed Saradomin's rule, but it is made very clear that not everybody did. Yes, that's how conquests go, but I'm not the one claiming my god never killed/put to death/hurt somebody who chose not to follow him, wasn't already living under his rule, and didn't attack him/his people first.

And you gotta love that last paragraph: Zammy's people were doing worse stuff, so that makes Saradomin killing people who didn't want to be ruled by him a good thing. And seriously? Saradomin would have only killed the people resisting his occupation? So I take if Vanescula had been able to invade Misthalin you'd be just fine with her killing off people who tried to 'violently uprise?'

Padomenes said :
It is pretty dumb if you think about it to escalate what was originally a more peaceful/less extreme occupation by violently attacking and killing some of their troops. Officer: "We come in pe- *gets killed by crossbow bolt*" You really think they wouldn't retaliate if somebody did that?.

A neighboring country invades yours and occupies your town. They begin enforcing their own laws, and don't harm anybody who obeys them. However, they are clearly armed, and make no attempt to hide the fact that they will kill anybody who disobeys and/or resists their rule. Is the invading force in the right?

18-Jan-2017 07:19:11 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2017 07:24:36 by Hguoh

Padomenes

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Hguoh said :
Pads, it turned violent and Saradomin perpetuated it. Sure, some of the Empire's population may have welcomed Saradomin's rule, but it is made very clear that not everybody did. Yes, that's how conquests go, but I'm not the one claiming my god never killed/put to death/hurt somebody who chose not to follow him, wasn't already living under his rule, and didn't attack him/his people first.

And you gotta love that last paragraph: Zammy's people were doing worse stuff, so that makes Saradomin killing people who didn't want to be ruled by him a good thing. And seriously? Saradomin would have only killed the people resisting his occupation? So I take if Vanescula had been able to invade Misthalin you'd be just fine with her killing off people who tried to 'violently uprise?' But what do you think was going to happen if troops step in at first 'peacefully', but then get shot at or killed? I am saying this happens in all conquests and its not exclusive to Saradomin. It would have happened alot moreso with the Zarosian Empire, if you want to say what he did was "wrong" then in order to be fair you must say all conquest is bad no matter who does it.

Occupation is not the 100% moral thing to do, but its done so with utilitarian interests of establishing your government over a certain area or plot of land, its economy, infrastructure and resources. Not with the intent of "Plunderrr, killlll everyone, burn everything and knock down all buildings!!!!!" as some people here keep suggesting.

Other kinds of occupiers would probably have plundered and set fire at first sight to the buildings. But this type of occupation is alot more civilized or not so bad compared to the others like that of maybe how say the Bandosians would do it.

I'm trying to say he didn't want to just smash, kill and burn everything. You can see how Saradomin refurnished Annakarl into a fortress for himself instead of razing.

18-Jan-2017 07:27:02 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2017 07:49:35 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
But what do you think was going to happen if troops step in at first 'peacefully', but then get shot at or killed? I am saying this happens in all conquests and its not exclusive to Saradomin. It would have happened alot moreso with the Zarosian Empire, if you want to say what he did was "wrong" then in order to be fair you must say all conquest is bad no matter who does it.

But what did you expect to happen when he bloody invaded a kingdom? Did you expect them to just roll over and let an invading force assume control over them? If you don't believe he expected that, then how can you claim he came with any intentions other than for war (also, how the heck is invading a territory and commanding the people there to submit or die considered coming peacefully)?

Padomenes said :
I'm trying to say he didn't want to just smash, kill and burn everything. You can see how Saradomin refurnished Annakarl into a fortress for himself instead of razing.

And we know he didn't just build it on top of the site of Annakarl after razing the original fortress how exactly (the style of architecture in the cutscene depiction of Annakarl during the God Wars certainly differs from that of Ghorrock)?

Seems to be the way every other Zarosian settlement Saradomin took over was handled besides Ghorrock. Senntisten was built over multiple times. Paddewwa was built over. Lassar is gone. Dareeyak had a village built in it's place. Carallanger had a graveyard built in its place.

18-Jan-2017 08:49:26

Padomenes

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For the buildings you do realize though its possible that they could have been destroyed in the god wars' fighting? Especially if you have a Tier 3 "high war god" Bandos running around. Look how fast Annakarl the fortress god destroyed, also it wasn't built over. The fortress still retained the original name from the cutscene as RoTM showed when it was under Saradomin's control. Point in this though is infrastructure during the god wars were very frequently destroyed in the fighting, especially for a war that lasts so long plus with gods occasionally even getting involved in the battles or powerful creatures, magic being used. Look at the crater pit in the wilderness for instance with all those crushed bones.

Also remember the lore which stated that most of Forinthry was already devastated even before Zamorak's blast from the Stone of Jas. What makes you think it could have gone any different with the rest of the former empire's colonies? Sure there was no blast from the Stone of Jas but they were still very devastated by the heavy fighting. Saradomin's forces also came under frequent attack from Zamorak whom had the largest army at the time plus sometimes Bandos if he had switched sides against him, and chances are even if they had managed to successfully push them back out to retake an area they formerly occupied, it would have been largely destroyed.

He wanted to re-purpose, not destroy the empire's infrastructure and inventions. Think of where he got the knowledge to make silvthril and holy water, from the humans of the empire who converted to his side most likely or the libraries. Its possible the temple knights are keeping many of the books from the former empire too they could safely acquire.

19-Jan-2017 14:55:44 - Last edited on 19-Jan-2017 15:07:18 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Pads, let's examine the story of Senntisten, the biggest most valuable city in the Zarosian Empire.

One of the last bastions of Zarosian Loyalists, Senntisten fell to Zamorakian control around year 3740 of the third age. Only 64 years later, however, the city had been razed and an entirely new city, Saranthium, was built on the site (year 3804 of the Third Age).

Riddle me this: why raze and replace Senntisten if the goal wasn't to destroy all traces of the Zarosian Empire?

19-Jan-2017 18:15:06

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Saradomin and Sliske's Endgame