RuneScape Forum Archive | Saradomin, Seren, or Armadyl?

Sep

2012

Giras

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Saradomin is the one god you should NEVER follow. His faction is one of the only ones without a concrete philosophy, it ultimately boils down to "obey Saradomin, he's never wrong because he's Saradomin." It is more of a personality cult than anything else. When it all comes down to it, Saradomin isn't even willing to make any sacrifices himself in order to gain the power to create his "perfect universe."

During Sliske's Endgame, Saradomin was willing to give up the stone to Zaros (someone in his eyes would destroy the universe with it), in exchange for his estranged daughter. This shows that Saradomin's own personal feelings and attachments are worth more under his regime than the lives of everyone else.

Even if we pretend to buy Saradomin's BS about the Naragi, the Garlandia incident was unforgivable. Jmods have confirmed that the rival species was sentient . Meaning they were indeed capable of reasoning. Even assuming they had such an alien sense of right and wrong that conquest and killing were all they valued, it still means Saradomin just wiped them all out without even making the attempt to educate them on another way. He just committed genocide against a species simply for having values that differed from his own. This modus operandi of "if you don't submit to our way of thinking, then you will die" has been seen again and again from saradominists themselves as well.

Saradominist societies have hardly been ones in which people aren't exploited. Even when he was present on Gielinor we've seen his commanders use propaganda to recruit all working age men from villages, essentially condemning them to starvation just so his army could have a few more in terms of cannon fodder. There is also no evidence that Saradomin would ensure everyone is cared for, only that they would be subservient to him.

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

26-Aug-2017 21:43:29

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'm taking it with a grian of salt from what is said about those Icyene rivals of whatever they are, for all we know the Icyene provoked them first. Just because a species have diffrent views or are unreasonable, doesn't mean they deserve to be wiped out or anything.

I don't get the justification for ripping off Garlandia her wings, just to show what they would do to you if you don't take up arms. What Sara did is brutal not to mention barbaric, only thing you are showing is what for a tyranical monster you are, which doesn't make you any hair better then the ones you are fighting.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

26-Aug-2017 22:05:04

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

*Where does it say that Saradomin even saw Zaros as 'somebody who would destroy the universe' however? We only see that Saradomin just thinks Zaros is incapable or unfit of being a leader/ruler of a major civilization. Not that he would 'blow everything up for no reason' in Saradomin's view, perhaps 'enslave' under a Drakan style way yes but no hints on the previous.

*Mod Jack strongly implied that alot of humans from the former Zarosian Empire also joined Saradomin's side in the god wars, and eventually all of them surviving that did not convert to Zamorakianism ended up becoming Saradominists instead by the 5th age out of their own will? Some influence of the knowledge they brought into his 'empire' can be seen in the blue wizard school's teachings or the magics used against vampyres. If Saradomin's order is not less exploitive than Zaros or Drakan's then a constructive question; in your opinion what do you believe made them want to join Saradomin over the others? We would have to get more confirmation on Saradomin's policies between his followers from the mods: https://twitter.com/JagexJack/status/822095473859264513

*It was also stated that the species were really aggressive, unwilling to reason even if they could? They attacked firsthand and did not want peace, if you encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes that spread disease by nature/instinct wouldn't the first thing that come to mind be to get rid of them?

*For the Garlandia incident its not uncommon for societies to publicly execute those they deemed 'deserters' or are unwilling to fight in a major war that would determine the state of their 'society'?

*Regarding the army stuff, it was implied that in the third age for all societies it was a struggle to survive daily for all and there were barely any civilians. Most encampments made never lasted long.

26-Aug-2017 22:06:05 - Last edited on 26-Aug-2017 22:15:28 by Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Derack said :
I'm taking it with a grian of salt from what is said about those Icyene rivals of whatever they are, for all we know the Icyene provoked them first. Just because a species have diffrent views or are unreasonable, doesn't mean they deserve to be wiped out or anything. It was killed or be killed, what do you suggest? Let them wipe you out? If they won that would have been what happened to the Icyene. Public execution of 'deserters' was/is a very common practice in many wars that had extreme importance, because of the pressure coming from them.

It was already implied that the war was going to determine what would happen to the Icyene as a whole?

Giras said :
Saradominist societies have hardly been ones in which people aren't exploited. Even when he was present on Gielinor we've seen his commanders use propaganda to recruit all working age men from villages, essentially condemning them to starvation just so his army could have a few more in terms of cannon fodder. There is also no evidence that Saradomin would ensure everyone is cared for, only that they would be subservient to him. Again what about from the godbook?

"The currency of goodness is honor, it retains its value through scarcity. This is Saradomin's wisdom" implying that's a teaching from him? This is the strongest hint of what the 'concrete philosophy' would be.

A common notion then is that Zaros's order would have the 'Might = Right' thing but not his.

Contrasted with no offence, but this is to try and determine what the writers wanted the characters to be: "The weak deserve to die so the strong may flourish" from the opposite godbook or Bilrach and Zemouregal's quotes?

We can't merely narrow it down to our own personal opinions, but of what the writers want them to be like, also more detailedly any elaborations on this quote? https://twitter.com/JagexStu/status/894803479864246273

26-Aug-2017 22:09:04 - Last edited on 26-Aug-2017 22:24:54 by Padomenes

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :

*It was also stated that the species were really aggressive, unwilling to reason even if they could? They attacked firsthand and did not want peace, if you encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes that spread disease by nature/instinct wouldn't the first thing that come to mind be to get rid of them?

*For the Garlandia incident its not uncommon for societies to publicly execute those they deemed 'deserters' or are unwilling to fight in a major war that would determine the state of their 'society'?

So it's all deserved them that she got her wings ript off then? Societies with those kinda rules are doomed to fail, not to mention are nothing but ruled with tyrants. There are many ways to make and example, but that was just a act of barbarism, and that from a god that is/believes he's righteous and good.

Quote me it. Even then, until we get more lore or visit that planet things will be changed. My believe, it's best of not to discus to much about it.

Seems to me like bad arguement.
If i encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes (asuming) in the woods, i will leave it alone. If they are in my house, then yeah, i will remove them, but there is a big diffrence between those things in my house then on the enitre world. Try again.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

26-Aug-2017 22:28:13 - Last edited on 26-Aug-2017 22:30:44 by Derack

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Derack said :
Padomenes said :

*It was also stated that the species were really aggressive, unwilling to reason even if they could? They attacked firsthand and did not want peace, if you encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes that spread disease by nature/instinct wouldn't the first thing that come to mind be to get rid of them?

*For the Garlandia incident its not uncommon for societies to publicly execute those they deemed 'deserters' or are unwilling to fight in a major war that would determine the state of their 'society'?

So it's all deserved them that she got her wings ript off then? Societies with those kinda rules are doomed to fail, not to mention are nothing but ruled with tyrants. There are many ways to make and example, but that was just a act of barbarism, and that from a god that is/believes he's righteous and good.

Quote me it. Even then, until we get more lore or visit that planet things will be changed. My believe, it's best of not to discus to much about it.

Seems to me like bad arguement.
If i encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes (asuming) in the woods, i will leave it alone. If they are in my house, then yeah, i will remove them, but there is a big diffrence between those things in my house then on the enitre world. Try again. I am talking about having it in the vicinity of your house.

Except those creatures were actively hostile to and were directly attacking the Icyene, trying to wipe them out.

Nope not 'deserved', but it was a measure at that time which seemed like the more 'realistic' solution.

If you mean you have a worldview 'societies like that fail'? Then howcome all the societies including ours in the 'real world' that used those measures have not 'failed'(As in collapsed) yet? You had as said, people that refused to fight when sent get tied to a chair, blindfolded then executed infront of everybody.

What if many practiced similar executions in the god wars?

26-Aug-2017 22:38:33

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
If you mean you have a worldview 'societies like that fail'? Then howcome all the societies including ours in the 'real world' that used those measures have not 'failed'(As in collapsed) yet?

They have. Fascism doesn't last, neither does its underachieving twin brother communism. Most countries with these ideologies collapse, and those still remaining are in poor shape, in the process of collapsing.

In this case, since you've brought the discussion to real world, Saradomin would be the fascist, Armadyl would be the communist, and Seren would be the socialist. Not all that different from each other and all doomed to fail. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

26-Aug-2017 23:35:24

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Where does it say that Saradomin even saw Zaros as 'somebody who would destroy the universe' however?"

Sliske's endgame.

I choose to push on. The idea of Zamorak, or Zaros, claiming the stone is abhorrent to me.

That fact that Saradomin lumps Zaros in the same category as Zamorak (whom saradomin sees as a deranged destroyer) indicates that Saradomin thinks Zaros would indeed use the stone for destruction.

"Mod Jack strongly implied that alot of humans from the former Zarosian Empire also joined Saradomin's side"

Even in modern times Saradominists lie, cheat, and murder to spread their creed. Wizards' tower involved a Saradominist blunder, followed by a malicious smear campaign based on lies to discredit Zamorakians. There is also the example of Aeonisig's inquisition of Saradomin in which non-saradominists were dragged from their homes and murdered. With a few thousand years to work with, of course Saradominists would've managed to assimilate the Zarosian population.

"The currency of goodness is honor, it retains its value through scarcity. This is Saradomin's wisdom"

This also flows into Saradomin's preaching of supposed honor but he himself has all the honor of a cockroach as he founded the Temple Knights, a group of traitors and seditionists who are responsible for black ops sabotage and smear campaigns of other factions. He basically founded a gielinorian illuminati. Since Saradomin and his followers don't practice what they preach, it ultimately boils down to a personality cult with only the tenants of "obey Saradomin."

"We can't merely narrow it down to our own personal opinions, but of what the writers want them to be like, also more detailedly any elaborations on this quote?"

You're really trying to talk about personal opinions when you've been trying to twist mod stu's quote into "proof" that saradomin not only wants but will actually deliver on a carefree utopia?

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

26-Aug-2017 23:37:42

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Padomenes said :
If you mean you have a worldview 'societies like that fail'? Then howcome all the societies including ours in the 'real world' that used those measures have not 'failed'(As in collapsed) yet?

They have. He was the one who mentioned it, and we're talking about something that the society we live in also did in war-time(Have you read about what was done to deserters in WWI by the allies)?

Bandos would be closer to 'fascist' actually. But what I'm saying here is that the above is not an uncommon tactic, you might even soon see god wars lore use it.

Giras said :
"Where does it say that Saradomin even saw Zaros as 'somebody who would destroy the universe' however?"

Sliske's endgame.

I choose to push on. The idea of Zamorak, or Zaros, claiming the stone is abhorrent to me.

That fact that Saradomin lumps Zaros in the same category as Zamorak (whom saradomin sees as a deranged destroyer) indicates that Saradomin thinks Zaros would indeed use the stone for destruction.

You're really trying to talk about personal opinions when you've been trying to twist mod stu's quote into "proof" that saradomin not only wants but will actually deliver on a carefree utopia? What if Saradomin's perception of the 'danger' from Zaros was different from that of Zamorak's(Such as belief he may return to power on Gielinor and rule again) but that he wanted neither? Considered that possibility?

The 'inquisition' it says was done to 'crack down on an insurrection' but of which ended as soon as the second battle of the salve concluded, in which a threat was defeated.

During the god wars some humans from the empire joined both either Saradomin or Zamorak?

The current model of Saradominist society does not include 'forced conversion' anymore.

I didn't 'twist' anything, I asked with the purpose of finding out.

26-Aug-2017 23:49:07 - Last edited on 26-Aug-2017 23:51:38 by Padomenes

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

(Continued from last post.)

Saradomin lies and twists the truth a whole damn lot. Even he has never said that he would eliminate all survival woes and prevent predatory practices. Even a Saradominist state controlled by his handpicked illuminati like Asgarnia has deplorable merchants like Rolo the Stout exploiting the people's misery for profits. Asgarnia's official state is about as Saradominist as Saradominist gets, and even it hasn't become the utopia you claim he represents.

"It was also stated that the species were really aggressive, unwilling to reason even if they could? They attacked firsthand and did not want peace, if you encountered a wasp nest or mosquitoes that spread disease by nature/instinct wouldn't the first thing that come to mind be to get rid of them?"

Wasps and mosquitoes aren't sentient. Sentient means they would be capable of reason. I've already explained in my original post. If they were not willing to outright negotiate, then it implies a foreign system of values. A hostile conquering state should be fought, but no sane person would go right to genocide of the whole species after initial negotiations break down. It would be a simple matter to sue for peace once icyene victory became inevitable, many hostile states become more compliant when put in a position of weakness. It's obvious that Saradomin used fear and propaganda to fuel an extermination campaign the same as the ones he used on Gielinor.

"For the Garlandia incident its not uncommon for societies to publicly execute those they deemed 'deserters' or are unwilling to fight in a major war that would determine the state of their 'society'?"

They were not yet at war, and we have no idea who was the aggressor. Saradomin used Garlandia as an example of what WILL happen, not what already is happening. Furthermore, Saradomin's actions on Garlandia personally was also stupid. Why not present her to the other race and let them do the dirty work? Wouldn't an action by them be a-

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

26-Aug-2017 23:52:13

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