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Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Chaos Lupus said :
I disagree entirely. No moderation was working perfectly, FC members do not need to be monitored like kindergarteners. Electing generals and executive action have led to nothing but power abuse, drama, and headache.
You weren't there, m8. That's all I can say.

For nearly a straight week, the FC was derailed on a daily basis. Whether it was Aegon, or pointless religionpolitics arguments that devolved into shouting matches, the FC invariably turned into a ******* mess. To say that no moderation was "working perfectly" is an absolute joke at best, or a flat-out lie at worst. And to preempt you: when the FC is derailed, the ignore list is not a solution, as I've explained before.

In any case, we aren't going to change each others' minds here. I'm just stating my position so the FC does not regress. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

18-Mar-2016 22:39:08 - Last edited on 18-Mar-2016 22:42:47 by Raleirosen

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Half Centaur said :
Five people complaining about a general for a specific issue is a good reason to at least re-evaluate a general's position. Whether it be these people can repeal him alone- or it moves to some trial period (to see if the general actually broke a rule or abused the position), is a good point to debate though.

I am absolutely fine with putting generals under evaluation. What I'm not fine with is the idea of a number of people deciding they don't like a general and just demoting them, no questions asked. For two reasons

1) It's too easy. Trust me, as someone who has had to deal with their fair share of RS politics over the years, this is just too easy to do. In your head, you're probably thinking of 5-10 invested FC members who seriously have an issue with a general and want to take action. In reality, it's maybe 2-3 invested members and a group of acquaintances/friends they managed to recruit for their crusade but aren't really interested in the issue, and yes these can be FC members who don't even know the general in question.

2) This can be done for all the wrong reasons. People can do this because they want an empty seat to try and grab. Or because they feel their faction isn't represented. They can want to remove the general because he called Zamorak "evil" or doesn't like Armadyl.

While I am all for an easy removal of generals, this is too easy. There needs to be room for rebuttal. And I don't think we should immediately cave in to minority groups. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

18-Mar-2016 22:42:48

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

Posts: 9,633 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Raleirosen said :
Chaos Lupus said :
I disagree entirely. No moderation was working perfectly, FC members do not need to be monitored like kindergarteners. Electing generals and executive action have led to nothing but power abuse, drama, and headache.
You weren't there, m8. That's all I can say.

For nearly a straight week, the FC was derailed on a daily basis. Whether it was Aegon, or pointless religionpolitics arguments that devolved into shouting matches, the FC invariably turned into a ******* mess. To say that no moderation was "working perfectly" is an absolute joke at best, or a flat-out lie at worst. And to preempt you: when the FC is derailed, the ignore list is not a solution, as I've explained before.

In any case, we aren't going to change each others' minds here. I'm just stating my position so the FC does not regress.

And when did I miss an entire week? I don't see the issue with people discussing what they want to discuss.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

18-Mar-2016 22:53:39

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

Posts: 5,069 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Chaos Lupus said :
And when did I miss an entire week? I don't see the issue with people discussing what they want to discuss.
I just find it impossible to believe that you could be totally fine with the sheer quantity and severity of the absolute ****shows that occurred in the FC during that week.

Also, I don't remember seeing you in the chat when they occurred, so there's that. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

18-Mar-2016 23:00:23 - Last edited on 18-Mar-2016 23:00:54 by Raleirosen

Helring
Mar Member 2005

Helring

Posts: 4,609 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I don't think having Generals will work unless its very easy to remove any at the center of Drama. No room for rebuttal, just because one group likes the General doesn't mean they should stay when another group doesn't trust them to impartially moderate. The FC is a fractured place, with many different groups that severely dislike eachother, and the point is to hold them together. Moderation is generally about judgement, and if people don't trust yours then you're worthless as a Moderator for the chat.

If you want a system where there will be constant fighting then by all means make Generals appointed and make it difficult to remove ones that people dislike. You're just going to end up with more people leaving the FC because they don't like who is running it or you'll end up with group constantly arguing with that General.

If you want a system where the Generals end up being able to hold things together, then you need ones that aren't controversial. You need FC members to be able to easily remove the ones that are or become controversial. Because the actual actions don't matter, perception matters and if the perception is that you can't trust the Generals then it doesn't matter whether they're doing their jobs perfectly, its just going to cause problems.
Runelabs: Fight Back against the Purist Invasion of Tuai Leit and push them back off the Island

18-Mar-2016 23:02:48

Helring
Mar Member 2005

Helring

Posts: 4,609 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
There's one other option I can think of that might work. Remove Generals completely, as there's no reason that you'd need to be a General to kick. Give everyone whatever the lowest kicking rank is if they can spend a week or two in chat without derailing it or causing major issues. Require some sort of proof of major issues to demote someone back to no rank.

This way, everyone can moderate as long as they can show that they aren't causing trouble. You wouldn't have a couple Generals for people to target since there would be no Generals and everyone would generally have the same rank unless they cause trouble.
Runelabs: Fight Back against the Purist Invasion of Tuai Leit and push them back off the Island

18-Mar-2016 23:13:32

Amascut
Aug Member 2013

Amascut

Posts: 21,623 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I lean towards Option 1 still. Generals have lead to certain people playing politics and setting themselves up to powergrab. The last Generals election we had was the dirtiest thing I've seen in my life, and was an absolute disgrace. The reason I don't lean towards Option 3 is simply that I enter the FC one day to see the specific person who started the grubbiness last election cycle, Uni, randomly handed general again, after we'd finally had a lovely few weeks not dealing with the drama that normally comes from those positions.

I think it's absurd that in this community we can't even pick people to be chat moderators because some of them aren't mature enough to do that well enough to not spark drama. It's outright disgraceful.

As such, I believe a lack of generals is a better thing for this community, with Ban requests simply being available for someone who is causing a legitimate issue (ie Aegon it seems). I'm tired of the backdoor backstabbing, the whining, the bribing, the arguments, the playing politics, and the awful behavior every time we try to decide who is vaguely not horrid enough to let them have the ability to kick. Are we not above that?

It doesn't seem so.

So get rid of it. @Fannygirdle on Twitter | Co-Owner of The Scrying Pool, a future updates and lore clan

19-Mar-2016 03:09:45

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