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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Rifleavenger said :
Normally I'd agree with you. But in both cases this seems to be "how to teach people to deal with fires." This isn't trying to compare wars, or fights over mystical artifacts, or the Forinthry explosion to some real life atrocity. It's a matter of testing how people respond to/prepare for a fire. And I'm bringing up real life examples to show how simple it is to teach people how to act and respond to something like a fire without setting one yourself. There's no reason Zammy couldn't have attempted this instead, or at least warned them, except that he wanted to teach Moia a lesson and the villagers were coopted as a microcosm.

The only major difference I'm seeing is that Zamorak could put out (and did put out) most of the fire he initially generated whereas if you set one in real life it may go out of control. And I'd argue that if it DID go out of control because the villagers didn't step up Zammy wouldn't have decided to assist after all. I don't really have a personal stake in this argument, but I'll play devil's advocate:

They aren't really comparable because in our modern society, we know fires are a problem and have developed systems to deal with them. We are the more advanced version of the village that has already experienced the effects of Zamorak's lesson. In all likelihood the village, being a relatively primitive settlement, did not have any such systems and made them up on the spot thanks to the ingenuity of a few villagers.

Zamorak's lesson is not about fighting fires, it's separating the wheat from the chaff by forcing the villagers to come up with their own solutions. If Zamorak were to instead warn the villagers and just give them the knowledge, for one it would arguably be less effective and for second it would have nothing to do with his ideology.

See also: Hazel's post. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

21-Mar-2017 21:19:42 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:29:22 by Raleirosen

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Raleirosen said :
Zamorak's lesson is not about fighting fires, it's separating the wheat from the chaff by forcing the villagers to come up with their own solutions. If Zamorak were to instead warn the villagers and just give them the knowledge, for one it would arguably be less effective and for second it would have nothing to do with his ideology.

See also: Hazel's post. Sure, I get this. It's exactly why I find his ideology unacceptable. Even if the villagers had never seen fire before and had to be taught its dangers, forcing them to sink or swim when lives are on the line is cruel. And that gets back to the original point I was trying to make before getting lost yelling semantics (and bending/breaking forum rules about RW examples, my bad) at Giras: this is a time that Zamorak forced another person or group to live how he believes they should, or suffer the consequences (burning alive should they fail to put out the fire).

21-Mar-2017 21:37:02 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:38:17 by Rifleavenger

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Rifleavenger said :
Sure, I get this. It's exactly why I find his ideology unacceptable. Even if the villagers had never seen fire before and had to be taught its dangers, forcing them to sink or swim when lives are on the line is cruel. But it does work, which gives the ideology a lot of credibility. Rifleavenger said :
And that gets back to the original point I was trying to make before getting lost yelling semantics (and bending/breaking forum rules about RW examples, my bad) at Giras: this is a time that Zamorak forced another person or group to live how he believes they should, or suffer the consequences (burning alive should they fail to put out the fire). Ah, I forgot what this thread was even about for a few pages. You're perfectly correct, Giras' apologetics regarding that point were ridiculous. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

21-Mar-2017 21:43:36 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:44:32 by Raleirosen

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Raleirosen said :
Rifleavenger said :
And that gets back to the original point I was trying to make before getting lost yelling semantics (and bending/breaking forum rules about RW examples, my bad) at Giras: this is a time that Zamorak forced another person or group to live how he believes they should, or suffer the consequences (burning alive should they fail to put out the fire). Ah, I forgot what this thread was even about for a few pages. You're perfectly correct, Giras' apologetics regarding that point were ridiculous. Which, to be fair, is totally my fault. I went off on the irrelevant and impossible task of judging the philosophy's moral worth, instead of just pressing Giras about what constitutes the use of force if magical arson doesn't.

Shoulda joined debate club and taken my professor's advice to take a few more philosophy courses after all it seems.

21-Mar-2017 21:52:08 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:53:39 by Rifleavenger

Summerleaf
Nov Member 2012

Summerleaf

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Raleirosen said :
Rifleavenger said :
Sure, I get this. It's exactly why I find his ideology unacceptable. Even if the villagers had never seen fire before and had to be taught its dangers, forcing them to sink or swim when lives are on the line is cruel. But it does work, which gives the ideology a lot of credibility.

I mean, yea it works, but it's kinda f*cked up, if you think about it.

21-Mar-2017 22:41:15

Lord Pyro I
Nov Member 2018

Lord Pyro I

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Summerleaf said :
Raleirosen said :
Rifleavenger said :
Sure, I get this. It's exactly why I find his ideology unacceptable. Even if the villagers had never seen fire before and had to be taught its dangers, forcing them to sink or swim when lives are on the line is cruel. But it does work, which gives the ideology a lot of credibility.

I mean, yea it works, but it's kinda f*cked up, if you think about it.

I think that depends on your perspective. Any parent might take a similar route with their child, giving them the appearance of a sink or swim situation, a god just to think on a bigger scale.

In the end a method may appear harsh or even cruel but it isn't if it saves lives and there is no alternative. One burned hand is more effective than a million warnings about fire, there is no means to force a village to take a threat seriously that would not cause even more harm than good. This a mistake Saradomin made which ended in mutilation and genocide. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

21-Mar-2017 22:53:05

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Rifleavenger said :
Raleirosen said :
Zamorak's lesson is not about fighting fires, it's separating the wheat from the chaff by forcing the villagers to come up with their own solutions. If Zamorak were to instead warn the villagers and just give them the knowledge, for one it would arguably be less effective and for second it would have nothing to do with his ideology.

See also: Hazel's post. Sure, I get this. It's exactly why I find his ideology unacceptable. Even if the villagers had never seen fire before and had to be taught its dangers, forcing them to sink or swim when lives are on the line is cruel. And that gets back to the original point I was trying to make before getting lost yelling semantics (and bending/breaking forum rules about RW examples, my bad) at Giras: this is a time that Zamorak forced another person or group to live how he believes they should, or suffer the consequences (burning alive should they fail to put out the fire).
But he didn't force them to live or die, he put out most of the fires himself and left just enough to teach them how to put out fires themselves.
Also the main point wasn't to just teach them about fire, it also got them out of their rut. They now have leaders and became a much stronger society as a whole.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 23:36:23

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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What I approve of the most in Zamorak's lesson was that he didn't reveal himself as the architect of their advancement or their suffering. Zamorak stayed hidden and allowed the village to set its own path, Saradomin would've shown up and demanded worship before forcing them to conform to his standards. In the end we get the chance for something wonderful and unique with Zamorak's way and another cookie-cutter village with Saradomin's.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 23:39:46

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