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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Ancient Drew said :
I consider societies more advanced the further ahead they are of the average civilisation of their time.


*Sigh* :P

Ahead of the average civilisation of their time in what context? Resources, technology, freedom, literacy, mortality, longevity, perceived comfort, happiness.

22-Mar-2017 17:11:20

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Cthris said :

My hypothetical scenario mentioned extreme pain with only a net gain of a year. Would a society that forces its citizens to undergo Extreme pain every 7 days with only the benefit of living on average more than one year than a comparable society that does not force its citizens to undergo any pain be more advanced in your opinion.

*You have absolute control over the citizens so there is no need to worry about convincing them of anything* I would say they are more advanced, but immediately recommend new research into painkillers and alternative routes to increased longevity at the same time. They have a method the other does not for increasing lifespan, it is just not an optimal one because of the frequent and disruptive application of pain.

Addendum: If the method is so disruptive that it renders the average member of society unable to operate from the pain for over a cumulative year, then it is less advanced. In that case the added longevity is not conducive to the ability of the society to further advance or to fitness (well, technically fitness is simply the odds one will live long enough to reproduce, but we haven't been using that definition from the beginning).

Addendum 2: As such, longevity for this purpose should likely be measured in the amount of time a person is not in a state that severely impairs action. This includes the overwhelming pain mentioned, being in a coma, or being asleep. Ex. A development that eliminates the need to sleep, but with no increase in actual time lived, would still be an advancement.

22-Mar-2017 17:14:22 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 17:27:46 by Rifleavenger

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Cthris said :
I'm not sure that follows, however the issue could be that our definitions of humanity are not unequivocal. Would you mind defining your version?

The species homo sapiens.

Cthris said :
So to clarify, you are saying that advancement in society is measured not just by longevity, but also by freedom, and ability to develop future technology?

I wouldn't just limit it to those criteria (and the ability to develop future technology largely plays into it by further enabling the others). There's happiness to consider; availability of resources/treatments/services; is the system set up for equality of opportunity (not necessarily equality of outcome) so that one's own merits play the biggest role in their success or failure; leisure time; freedom to express any opinion (the government can't take legal action against you, and others can't (or at least would receive punishment if they did) physically harm you, your property, etc... whilst, equally, people are allowed to express their disagreement with your opinion with the same protections) with the exceptions libel, slander, or legitimate (i.e. not made in jest) threats of violence, etc...

It's a multifaceted issue, and different people generally weigh different aspects, well, differently. So I'm sorry to say that I don't think it is possible to speak in absolutes on this point.

22-Mar-2017 17:18:01

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Hguoh said :
Cthris said :
I'm not sure that follows, however the issue could be that our definitions of humanity are not unequivocal. Would you mind defining your version?

The species homo sapiens.

Well homo sapiens are all dead lol so I assume you mean homo sapien sapien? :P

Anyways, that wasn't quite what I was looking for... Good and bad can only be objectively proven within categorical imperatives. For example, if humanity was the categorical imperative to continue surviving then the destruction of all humans would be objectively bad within that context. Unless you give a context to your set of individual things, such as their continued existence, or continued rationality or something like that, then we cannot prove that anything is objectively good or bad for them.

22-Mar-2017 17:29:58

Ancient Drew

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Cthris said :
Ancient Drew said :
I consider societies more advanced the further ahead they are of the average civilisation of their time.


*Sigh* :P

Ahead of the average civilisation of their time in what context? Resources, technology, freedom, literacy, mortality, longevity, perceived comfort, happiness. Overall. But here is something to think of; could each society be given a score out of 10 based on all of those things? For example:

Zarosian Empire:
Resources: 8/10.
Technology: 10.
Freedom: 6. Zaros himself steered clear and didn't influence his people directly much through his aura ability, but many in the church had their own agendas and were prone to stifling the people.
Literacy: 9.
Mortality: 2, assuming that low scores mean a lot of people die. I'm taking it that high scores overall are better.
Longevity: 7.
Perceived comfort: For the wealthy, high score of at least 8. For the poor, likely a 2.
Happiness: 4.

There are many others to think of as well. Prifddinas would score higher in happiness and comfort for all, everyone having high literacy, their technology coming from Seren's crystals, and with maybe 10/10 for resources. Mortality would be extremely low, and longevity would go through the roof. The elves are also all very happy as you would see visiting there, and they all look comfortable, with the kids skipping around carefree all over the city. And freedom...well, marks might be taken down due to Seren's crystals being addictive and her protective maternal instinct, but on the perspective of the elves, they're all completely free as long as they take a crystal with them to survive.

Make of that what you will, and feel free to apply it to any other civilisations you might find or hypothesise about along the way. :P Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

22-Mar-2017 17:32:15

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Hguoh said :
So I'm sorry to say that I don't think it is possible to speak in absolutes on this point.
So far I am inclined to agree. Identifying an absolute metric is the only way we can ever prove that our society is objectively more advanced than the dark ages.

22-Mar-2017 17:33:26

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Cthris said :
Well homo sapiens are all dead lol so I assume you mean homo sapien sapien? :P Nitpick, Homo sapiens sapiens is an extant subspecies of the species Homo sapiens . Thus there are living Homo sapiens .

22-Mar-2017 17:34:37 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 17:38:27 by Rifleavenger

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Rifleavenger said :

Addendum: If the method is so disruptive that it renders the average member of society unable to operate from the pain for over a cumulative year, then it is less advanced.
So to be clear, longevity is not the only factor to consider in societal advancement, we also have to take into consideration their ability to operate?

22-Mar-2017 17:37:36

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Rifleavenger said :
Cthris said :
Well homo sapiens are all dead lol so I assume you mean homo sapien sapien? :P Nitpick, Homo sapiens sapiens is an extant subspecies of the species Homo sapiens . Thus there are living Homo sapiens .

Fair enough, you got me :P In my defence, geneology is the most problematic and errorful science I have ever encountered.

22-Mar-2017 17:39:53

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