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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Also... I'm always sarcastic either half way or all the way. Don't take it too seriously or personally. Of course setting people on fire isn't good, but I do firmly believe they're better off prepared than awaiting inevitable disaster in the event of a real fire.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 20:05:17

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Giras said :
So the opposition basically boils down to: it's better to let them go unprepared against an eventuality because breaking the status quo is scawwwwy.

Fires happen in any society with flammable buildings. It's going to happen. People don't listen to warnings without a perceivable threat, we see this every day in society!
We don't do fire drills by burning down people's houses. We don't practice active shooter drills by having someone go in with a stun gun and tasering people. Preparedness does not require live fire testing.
Giras said :
Also... I'm always sarcastic either half way or all the way. Don't take it too seriously or personally. Of course setting people on fire isn't good, but I do firmly believe they're better off prepared than awaiting inevitable disaster in the event of a real fire.
Good to know. This marks my departure from the thread for awhile then.

21-Mar-2017 20:09:00 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 20:10:17 by Rifleavenger

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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I also take offense at the unfettered capitalism thing. To me, Zamorakianism represents change from previously failed systems. If unfettered capitalism fails then try something else, keeping the status quo in unfettered capitalism when it doesn't work is the antithesis for Zamorakianism.

As for the in-game examples, Morytania isn't Zamorakian... the Vyres use worship of Zamorak the same way the White Knights use the worship of Saradomin to control citizens. The wilderness isn't a state, also people who lived there (Summer's people) were Saradominist. Khazard is basically a bratty teenager having an endless party and never went to school properly (Hazeel was supposed to teach him, but was in a coma... so Khazard is basically that kid who pulls the legs off bugs for fun).

You're also ignoring how Bilrach states "Zamorak believes in unity in the face of adversity." Zamorakianism also breeds togetherness and teamwork.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 20:14:28

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rifleavenger said :
Giras said :
So the opposition basically boils down to: it's better to let them go unprepared against an eventuality because breaking the status quo is scawwwwy.

Fires happen in any society with flammable buildings. It's going to happen. People don't listen to warnings without a perceivable threat, we see this every day in society!
We don't do fire drills by burning down people's houses. We don't practice active shooter drills by having someone go in with a stun gun and tasering people. Preparedness does not require live fire testing.
Giras said :
Also... I'm always sarcastic either half way or all the way. Don't take it too seriously or personally. Of course setting people on fire isn't good, but I do firmly believe they're better off prepared than awaiting inevitable disaster in the event of a real fire.
Good to know. This marks my departure from the thread for awhile then.

How seriously did you take fire-drills and shooter drills? I remember everybody rolling their eyes and just doing it because we had to. You can bet your ass if we had a real fire or a real shooter, kids would take the drills and preparations seriously from then on.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 20:16:04

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

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Philosophy, religion, Zamorakism is a ideal a way of life (even if it means setting people there houses on fire).

But, so is every other way of life and religion and what's so ever.

While extreme in most cases; you can't argue it doesn't work 100%. The weak grow strong, the strong stronger or all die trying for what they believe in, there is always a certain honour in what someone believes in.

Now, Zamorak will cause most of these "obstacles" to "help" "improve" mortals, willing or unwilling. Good, Evil, it barely matters, actions have there purposes for ill or good will and they will always come with consequences and there down sides they bring. After the fall comes the rise, from the ashes mortals can and will arise from it.

As for zamorak being a hypocrit and all, i agree, Zamorak will do things that are against his own stances and beliefs, but then again, wouldn't we all be, not even not a little?
If we put our self into the shoes of the gods

Forces Zamorak to bent and demand your loyalty? Can't say for sure. But if you give your life and services to someone, be dang prepared to bite the dust if it doesn't go as you want.

I do know Zamorak is paranoid: afraid, prepared, willing to keep his people in check so they don't betray him. Betraying your master/lord will inspire others to do the same thing, no matter for what reason you do it.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

21-Mar-2017 20:19:41

Lord Pyro I
Nov Member 2018

Lord Pyro I

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Rifleavenger said :
Giras said :
So the opposition basically boils down to: it's better to let them go unprepared against an eventuality because breaking the status quo is scawwwwy.

Fires happen in any society with flammable buildings. It's going to happen. People don't listen to warnings without a perceivable threat, we see this every day in society!
We don't do fire drills by burning down people's houses. We don't practice active shooter drills by having someone go in with a stun gun and tasering people. Preparedness does not require live fire testing.
Giras said :
Also... I'm always sarcastic either half way or all the way. Don't take it too seriously or personally. Of course setting people on fire isn't good, but I do firmly believe they're better off prepared than awaiting inevitable disaster in the event of a real fire.
Good to know. This marks my departure from the thread for awhile then.


We may not do fire drills by burning down people's houses but it wasn't until we saw people's homes burn that we started doing them at all.

Your hypothetical scenario is not one that could ever actually occur. No being is without equal, nothing is beyond challenge. Tyranny tends to work by making those beneath you forget they can remove you or convincing them that they need you in power. Zamorak's philosophy does neither and Zamorak's power would always invite challenge. Even if it were achieved for a time, every system in perfect order is only marking time until in collapses into chaos once more, the Zarosian empire showed as much.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

21-Mar-2017 20:21:32

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Rifleavenger said :
We don't do fire drills by burning down people's houses. We don't practice active shooter drills by having someone go in with a stun gun and tasering people. Preparedness does not require live fire testing.
There is a degree of moral relativism between real life and Gielinor; conflating the two only serves to derail the thread.
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

21-Mar-2017 20:35:00

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Raleirosen said :
Rifleavenger said :
We don't do fire drills by burning down people's houses. We don't practice active shooter drills by having someone go in with a stun gun and tasering people. Preparedness does not require live fire testing.
There is a degree of moral relativism between real life and Gielinor; conflating the two only serves to derail the thread.
I said I'd leave for now, but I will answer this.

Normally I'd agree with you. But in both cases this seems to be "how to teach people to deal with fires." This isn't trying to compare wars, or fights over mystical artifacts, or the Forinthry explosion to some real life atrocity. It's a matter of testing how people respond to/prepare for a fire. And I'm bringing up real life examples to show how simple it is to teach people how to act and respond to something like a fire without setting one yourself. There's no reason Zammy couldn't have attempted this instead, or at least warned them, except that he wanted to teach Moia a lesson and the villagers were coopted as a microcosm.

The only major difference I'm seeing is that Zamorak could put out (and did put out) most of the fire he initially generated whereas if you set one in real life it may go out of control. And I'd argue that if it DID go out of control because the villagers didn't step up Zammy wouldn't have decided to assist after all.

For the other RW mentions I've used, yeah you're right. However, seeing as we don't truly live in Runescape this stunts how in-depth we can get. The full history, lived experience, and consequences of these philosophies is beyond us as players

Giras said :

How seriously did you take fire-drills and shooter drills?
I took them seriously. Many others did not. The one time we had a real fire I took it seriously, they didn't, but we all followed the rules none the less and everyone made it out alive.

21-Mar-2017 20:56:26 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:20:50 by Rifleavenger

Hazeel

Hazeel

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The point wasn't to prepare the village for fires--though I'm sure it did--the point was to advance the village itself. The village gained natural leaders, healers, and ironically became better organized. The village, as an entity, is better off now. It came at the cost of some lives and property. Depending on your views, it may or may not have been worth it.

Rifleavenger said :
Fine, ethical systems then. Of which I have rarely seen anyone seriously defend a system like Zamorakianism seriously outside of fictional settings and hypotheticals.


Welcome to Runescape.

Rifleavenger said :
Philosophical systems tied into capitalist ethos come closest, and even then any reasonable system there has exceptions made to things the "invisible hand" does not properly react to. Those also always preached "exaltation of merit" over "destroy the weak," which is what I thought Jagex was trying to spin 6th age Zamorakianism as (though I honestly find it more honest to be honest and admit the latter is a result of the former).


I wouldn't compare Zamorakianism to Capitalism, personally, but they do have one key trait in common. That being that they are driven by self interest. That said, the benefit of others can coincide with my own self interests, so it's not necessarily you vs the rest of the world.

Rifleavenger said :
The majority of real world societies


I don't care.

Rifleavenger said :
Whether Zamorakianism or (imo) unfettered capitalism, systems of ethics that promote selfish behavior cannot build a lasting society that has net utility between all members.


It does not, no. It favors the elite who have the drive to become powerful.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2017 21:13:50

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