RuneScape Forum Archive | Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

Maiden China

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Hazeel said :
Even the lowest slave can

strive to free themselves from their master and become the most powerful being in the world if they push themselves hard enough. 'can' as in 'is technically possibly but you'd have a higher chance of winning the lottery at the same time you're getting struck by lightning' Carn

20-Mar-2017 23:46:21

Hguoh

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Giras said :
Robes: they didn't brainwash users, they merely punished them if they thought to attack Zamorak.

Yes, which is forcing them to obey him or die.

Giras said :
Chaos Dwarves: accidental meaning not on purpose, that's like holding ~~Saradomin responsible for destroying the Naragi when he... oh wait, he actually meant it~~ ... okay that's like holding Seren responsible for maliciously enslaving the elves when she only meant to make them live longer.

As I said even though it was an accident, it happened, and I will hold him and others to their mistakes.

Giras said :
Twin Furies: The Furies pledged themselves to him and took an oath, they knew what they were getting into when working as military leaders. Zamorak didn't force them to make the oath to begin with.

Doesn't change the fact that he forced them to forgo their own desire for revenge to further his plans. Oh, and thanks for bringing up their pledge as that reminded me that their entire job was to hunt down and kill those who broke their oaths (disobeyed) Zamorak. You know, enforcing obedience.

Giras said :
Coup: Literally no evidence that Zamorakians forced anyone to convert.

Drakan in The Old Blood:

'Azzanadra,' I roared, my voice filling the chamber, 'Zamorak demands your presence and your fealty. If not... your death will suffice.'

What was that about Zamorakians not forcing people to convert?

Giras said :
God Wars: Saradomin attacked him.

Untrue. Zamorak returned from Infernus and attacked all the armies of the gods that had been fighting to conquer the territory of the Zarosian Empire. And even prior to his spat with Saradomin, he had allied with Saradomin so he could successfully take and conquer Senntisten (whose people expressly worked to avoid that).

21-Mar-2017 00:38:03

Hguoh

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Giras said :
Village: Zamorak was not barking orders, he gave them a much needed kick in the pants.

Let's have a thought exercise: I light your house on fire. I do not warn you. I do not help you. By your logic, I didn't force you to do anything about the fire, I just gave you a much needed kick in the pants.

It doesn't matter if the fire damaged/destroyed your home, your belongings, your family, etc... and you had to move to a new home, buy new belongings, mourn the loss of family members, etc...; I didn't force you to do any of that, you chose to do any or all of those things of your own free will, right? I mean, your only alternative would have been to sit there and die as the fire consumed your home, definitely got a good set of choices there.

21-Mar-2017 00:38:27

Sep

2012

Giras

Posts: 2,399 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Giras said :
Village: Zamorak was not barking orders, he gave them a much needed kick in the pants.

Let's have a thought exercise: I light your house on fire. I do not warn you. I do not help you. By your logic, I didn't force you to do anything about the fire, I just gave you a much needed kick in the pants.

It doesn't matter if the fire damaged/destroyed your home, your belongings, your family, etc... and you had to move to a new home, buy new belongings, mourn the loss of family members, etc...; I didn't force you to do any of that, you chose to do any or all of those things of your own free will, right? I mean, your only alternative would have been to sit there and die as the fire consumed your home, definitely got a good set of choices there.
You would not be forcing me to do anything, I would actively make the choices to rebuild and move on with my life. You see people choose to bury their problems in things like drugs and alcohol all the time. Hell, you even see people kill themselves all the time. How is staying strong and prospering as opposed to drinking your problems away not a choice?

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

21-Mar-2017 00:51:00 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 00:54:33 by Giras

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Giras said :
Robes: they didn't brainwash users, they merely punished them if they thought to attack Zamorak.

Yes, which is forcing them to obey him or die.

The robes were to prevent betrayal, not necessarily to force them to obey his every demand. Although they could be closely intertwined, I guess.

Giras said :

You see people choose to bury their problems in things like drugs and alcohol all the time. How is staying strong and prospering as opposed to drinking your problems away not a choice?

Let's not get into an argument about substance use disorder. It's not a choice.

21-Mar-2017 00:51:24 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 00:53:32 by Summerleaf

Sep

2012

Giras

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Hugoh, I don't think you understand the difference between honoring a deal and forcing service. Zamorak doesn't force anyone to serve him, but if they -consciously and willingly- enter into an agreement they should rightfully keep to that agreement unless Zamorak breaks it first.

I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently

.

21-Mar-2017 00:53:23

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
With Zamorakianism, the more power you have the more freedom you have to do whatever you want.

No, the more power compared to everybody else , the more freedom you have to do what you want. And with the ideal being that everybody else is striving for power, your freedom is going to be inherently limited by the number of people you can protect yourself from.

Hazeel said :
And if you want more freedom, all you need do is become more powerful and take it.

And it's entirely in the interests of those who hold power to act to the best of their abilities to keep others from gaining enough power to threaten them. Ergo, attempting to 'take your freedom,' inherently paints a big target on your back that reduces your freedom unless you manage to beat the overwhelming odds against you and succeed. And, even then, anybody else in power now sees you as a threat against their rule. So for all the effort, all the poor odds, and all your power, you only succeed in nabbing a minuscule amount of freedom more than you had to start with while putting yourself at a greater risk of losing it all. Unless, of course, you act hypocritically and act to keep your potential usurpers from gaining power, but that only works on the people you actually have authority over.

21-Mar-2017 00:56:26 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 00:59:06 by Hguoh

May

2022

Rifleavenger

Posts: 1,381 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Giras said :
You would not be forcing me to do anything... Sure, in the same way that putting a gun to your head and saying "jump" won't magically lift your feet off the ground.

By this logic arson wouldn't be a crime, nor would threatening someone until they fear for their life, nor would reckless speeding resulting in vehicular manslaughter. "it was their choice not to get out of the way of my car!" You're essentially saying that anything you can do to harm someone, their property, or their loved ones short of assault is not only ok, but a moral imperative to "keep them on their toes." But there's no real difference between creating a threat that others must respond to, or suffer, and directly attacking them.

A philosophical system that allows someone to damage, destroy, and debase people and things, while blaming the victim for not having the power to prevent it, is morally bankrupt. Little more than an excuse to oppress others while deluding yourself it's for their benefit; no better than what you would surely accuse Saradomin of doing.

Good practice for debating the Chaos fans back on r/SMT I suppose.

Giras said :
You see people choose to bury their problems in things like drugs and alcohol all the time. Hell, you even see people kill themselves all the time. How is staying strong and prospering as opposed to drinking your problems away not a choice? Failing to put out a fire created by an arsonist is nowhere near the same issue as drug/alcohol abuse or suicide; first off being that the arson case occurred without agency of victim at all, but because some outsider though you didn't have enough "excitement" in your tranquil life. Also, I'm in agreement with Elf, substance addiction and depression are NOT choices once they take hold. They're mental illnesses that need proper treatment, not callous disregard.

21-Mar-2017 01:27:09 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 01:41:37 by Rifleavenger

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Giras said :
Hugoh, I don't think you understand the difference between honoring a deal and forcing service. Zamorak doesn't force anyone to serve him, but if they -consciously and willingly- enter into an agreement they should rightfully keep to that agreement unless Zamorak breaks it first.

The Old Blood literally details a case of Zamorak sending Drakan to 'ask' Azzanadra to serve Zamorak or die. How is that not attempting to force service?

The Book of the Gods literally details a case of Zamorak setting fire to a village so that they would act in an method that he wanted them to, and he did so without regard to their opinion on the matter. How is that not forcing them to live as he wanted when they're only other alternative would be to be destroyed by the fire he started?

21-Mar-2017 01:54:21

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
No, the more power compared to everybody else , the more freedom you have to do what you want.

As Zaros would say..."Semantics".

Hguoh said :
And with the ideal being that everybody else is striving for power, your freedom is going to be inherently limited by the number of people you can protect yourself from.

Be more powerful than them then or else forge a strategic alliance. If they have more drive than you do, then they deserve more power and freedom than you.

Hguoh said :
And it's entirely in the interests of those who hold power to act to the best of their abilities to keep others from gaining enough power to threaten them.

Not at all true. If you limit the potential of a bunch of weaklings, then you will be fine. But if you keep trying to supress a bunch of people with a strong will and drive, you will eventually be overcome. It's in ones better interests to ally themselves with those who have power and interests that don't inherently conflict.

Hguoh said :
Ergo, attempting to 'take your freedom,' inherently paints a big target on your back that reduces your freedom unless you manage to beat the overwhelming odds against you and succeed.

WG. We have the biggest target on our heads imaginable. We handle it by not being a bunch of candy asses and pushing through.

Hguoh said :
And, even then, anybody else in power now sees you as a threat against their rule.

You mistake "power" with "control".

While I do seek power as an everlasting endgoal, I'd never want something as vulgar and tedious as world domination. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2017 02:16:29 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 02:20:19 by Hazeel

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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism