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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Hazeel

Hazeel

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You tried.

Astraea L said :
However, if Zamorak managed to defeat the other gods, there would be nobody left who could provide any meaningful opposition to him.

Elders. Kin. WG. Anyone ascended. Mortals who are on par with Gods.

Astraea L said :
But here’s the problem: If Zamorak controlled the entire universe, it would create order.

Who said he's trying to control it? So far he's only shown interest in killing tyranical Gods.

Astraea L said :
The only way Zamorak could avoid this would be if he were to stop gaining power,

Or just cease his position of leadership? Do you have any idea how many powerful people there are who have no interest in political authority?

Astraea L said :
Even if you take immortal beings out of the equation, there’s still the problem of governments becoming too powerful

Who said anything about creating a government?

Hguoh said :
One man's liberation is another's oppression,

Ultimately this is true. There is no world in which everyone can be free. There is freedom for the strong and freedom for none. Zamorakians advocate the former, giving those with power the freedom to do whatever they wish, including limit the freedoms of others. If you don't like it, then cut down anyone who would try to shackle you. If not, then you are fine where you are. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

20-Mar-2017 16:52:44 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 23:11:57 by Hazeel

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
There is freedom for the strong and freedom for none. Zamorakians advocate the later, giving those with power the freedom to do whatever they wish, including limit the freedoms of others.

Oh don't even kid yourself. The powerful inherently limit the freedoms of each other. The only time this isn't the case is if you have somebody so ridiculously more powerful than everybody else that they cannot possibly be defeated or opposed against their will (whose existence would inherently annul the idea of Zamorakianism).

All Zamorakian philosophy does is argue to shift the scale so that those with power have more freedom while those without as much power have less as opposed to trying to facilitate as much possible freedoms for all as is possible without infringing upon the freedoms of others.

20-Mar-2017 18:10:05 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 18:12:20 by Hguoh

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Summerleaf said :
Giras said :
Nice bait Jexel,

Literally me rn.

~~~~

If he is serious, I think he's either oversimplifying Zamorakian Philosophy to a point where it isn't even his anymore, or his bias is too strong to really see anything beyond "He is my enemy. Everything he thinks is flawed. He must be killed."

Beyond that, I mostly agree with Giras and Raleirosen.

Giras said :


As for Zamorak controlling the universe... you do understand that there is literally not one instance of Zamorak going around imposing his rules on how people should live right?

Except for this comment. In The Song from Before the War, it states:

Original message details are unavailable.
Mazakon's authority made Tasgall sound like a child arguing with his elders. "Kidnapping, torture and brainwashing, I know. I am grateful to the Army of Saradomin, but..."

I don't think it's much of a leap from there to being told how to live your life. I mean, the brainwashing is kind of a big indicator of that.
Saradominists use more propaganda than facts, when has any fact-checking of history ever agreed with the Saradominist story?
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

20-Mar-2017 20:08:01

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Hguoh said :
Literally no example of Zamorak going around imposing his on how people should live?

Robes of Subjugation
Chaos Dwarves (accidental, but it happened)
Commanding the Twin Furies track down and kill Vindicta when they wanted to take revenge for their fallen sister
Zamorak's Coup (yes, the empire was corrupt, but the end result was him imposing his own beliefs on the Zarosian loyalists against their will)
He led one of the 4 most significant factions in the first Gielinorian God Wars during which he deliberately acted to conquer the other 3's territories and people (he even took it upon himself to blow himself and the other 3 gods up so as the 'free' the people of Gielinor)
The village he set on fire in his Book of the Gods

Robes: they didn't brainwash users, they merely punished them if they thought to attack Zamorak.
Chaos Dwarves: accidental meaning not on purpose, that's like holding Saradomin responsible for destroying the Naragi when he... oh wait, he actually meant it ... okay that's like holding Seren responsible for maliciously enslaving the elves when she only meant to make them live longer.
Twin Furies: The Furies pledged themselves to him and took an oath, they knew what they were getting into when working as military leaders. Zamorak didn't force them to make the oath to begin with.
Coup: Literally no evidence that Zamorakians forced anyone to convert.
God Wars: Saradomin attacked him.
Village: Zamorak was not barking orders, he gave them a much needed kick in the pants.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

20-Mar-2017 20:19:00

Summerleaf
Nov Member 2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Giras said :

Saradominists use more propaganda than facts, when has any fact-checking of history ever agreed with the Saradominist story?

Truuuuuu. I would love to hear a GWD story about the front lines, from the point of view of a Zamorakian Human.

20-Mar-2017 21:45:00

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Giras said :

Village: Zamorak was not barking orders, he gave them a much needed kick in the pants. Saying that you were trying to "kick them in the pants" is a poor excuse for bombing someone's hometown, even if that's totally all you intended.

Spoken orders alone are not the only way to force others to live in a particular way. Unsolicited firebombing strikes me as one of those ways, and trying to downplay it seemingly to the level of a strict talking to is rather disingenuous. We aren't even informed if Zamorak even took pains to ensure no one died in the process.

20-Mar-2017 22:18:36

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

Posts: 5,069 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Giras said :
Saradominists use more propaganda than facts Giras said :
Robes: they didn't brainwash users, they merely punished them if they thought to attack Zamorak.
Chaos Dwarves: accidental meaning not on purpose, that's like holding Saradomin responsible for destroying the Naragi when he... oh wait, he actually meant it ... okay that's like holding Seren responsible for maliciously enslaving the elves when she only meant to make them live longer.
Twin Furies: The Furies pledged themselves to him and took an oath, they knew what they were getting into when working as military leaders. Zamorak didn't force them to make the oath to begin with.
Coup: Literally no evidence that Zamorakians forced anyone to convert.
God Wars: Saradomin attacked him.
Village: Zamorak was not barking orders, he gave them a much needed kick in the pants. Scanning for self-awareness...
ERROR: No results. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Mar-2017 22:20:09

Hazeel

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hguoh said :
All Zamorakian philosophy does is argue to shift the scale so that those with power have more freedom while those without as much power have less as opposed to trying to facilitate as much possible freedoms for all as is possible without infringing upon the freedoms of others.

Basically the lie of equality. What you call giving everyone the "same amount of freedom" I call giving everyone the same amount of restrictions. You're ultimately infringing on the freedoms of everyone without discrimation.

With Zamorakianism, the more power you have the more freedom you have to do whatever you want. And if you want more freedom, all you need do is become more powerful and take it. Take as much freedom and power as you want until you are satisfied or, better yet, never stop. Even the lowest slave can strive to free themselves from their master and become the most powerful being in the world if they push themselves hard enough. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

20-Mar-2017 23:20:39

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

Posts: 1,381 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hazeel said :

With Zamorakianism, the more power you have the more freedom you have to do whatever you want. And if you want more freedom, all you need do is become more powerful and take it. Take as much freedom and power as you want until you are satisfied or, better yet, never stop. Even the lowest slave can strive to free themselves from their master and become the most powerful being in the world if they push themselves hard enough. This is always the sales pitch of chaos and social darwinism, but so, so very rarely the reality.

The truth is that the majority of those who try will fail miserably, made into examples by the strong to deter any who might follow in their footsteps. What real chance does someone born into the dregs of an established Zamorakian society have of clawing their way up when the deck is stacked against them?

Just look at Morytania, how many humans ever achieved positions of power there without having to cease to be human? Be food, become a monster, or die, those were the only choices. The only people who resisted were anti-Zamorakian and only got as far as they did because of the player character (an outsider to the system). Oh, and the aid of another very powerful (Zamorakian?) Vyre who actually wanted to take that nightmare kingdom worldwide and had to be stopped.

Oh, with that last example in mind, can we also mention how a world of unbridled freedom like that could scarcely be enjoyed by the strong, for fear that one is surrounded by potential traitors as power hungry as oneself? For someone whose followers' afterlife is literally an eternal "Game of Thrones," Zamorak seems to react with surprise and bitterness to anyone who follows his own example and backstabs him (case in point, me, though I'd argue I can't betray someone I never held an ounce of respect or loyalty for. Seriously Zammy, WTF did you think would happen?).

20-Mar-2017 23:45:16 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 23:46:02 by Rifleavenger

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