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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Be more powerful than them then or else forge a strategic alliance. If they have more drive than you do, then they deserve more power and freedom than you.

So you either lose your freedom entirely because they crush you before you can become powerful enough to stop them (not because of any of your own merits/failings but because they established their power before you did) , have your freedoms limited by your alliance (which is exactly the situation you railed against), or manage to beat completely overwhelming odds (almost certainly due to a large amount of luck rather than your own merits (aka: the Zammy just so happened to have the Siphon which told him how to beat Zaros, situation)).

Hazeel said :
You mistake "power" with "control".

While I do seek power as an everlasting endgoal, I'd never want something as vulgar and tedious as world domination.

No, I do not. I'm acknowledging that one leads to the other and vice versa. It is in the best interests of the powerful to keep others from gaining enough power to oppose them so as to facilitate them continuing to be powerful (be that by preventing violent coups that could end in their death or maintaining their position of power in an 'alliance').

Likewise, it is the best interest of those seeking to control others to have the power to to enforce their control. Otherwise, their control can be subverted at a moment's notice.

I do not mistake power for control, because I do not fool myself by trying to pretend that the two are different.

21-Mar-2017 02:35:17 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 02:45:52 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Not at all true. If you limit the potential of a bunch of weaklings, then you will be fine. But if you keep trying to supress a bunch of people with a strong will and drive, you will eventually be overcome. It's in ones better interests to ally themselves with those who have power and interests that don't inherently conflict.

That's just a fact of reality. 'No king rules forever,' and all that. But here's the thing, if you make it so that those people with strong will and drive can't readily access the means to oppose you, you tend to start breaking that strong will and drive and cripple all but the most serious uprisings against you (aka: Morytania prior to Vanescula deciding to shake things up (and, again, we only managed to sort out the resulting situation due to a fair amount of luck)).

And ally up? I'd like to point out again that you're the one whose opinion is that such systems inherently limit freedoms and create discontent. At that point, your power entirely depends on you and your ally appeasing each other and limiting your own freedoms to do so, and you can't afford to break that alliance as that gives the forces that you originally created the alliance to oppose ample opportunity to move in and stomp you.

21-Mar-2017 03:03:55

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
WG. We have the biggest target on our heads imaginable. We handle it by not being a bunch of candy asses and pushing through.

Yes, and it should be fairly clear at this point that we are the exception rather than the rule. For one, we had a chance to gain power while not being allowed to permanently die. For two, we generally gained the necessary power to stand a chance against those who would oppose us prior to showing up on their radar because those who seek to practice your brand of Social Darwinism happen to be majorly opposed by the populace who tend to favor the systems you dislike, and this, ironically, means that those practicing said philosophy tend to not have much power by comparison). Finally whilst already possessing significant power of our own, we were granted World Guardian status by Guthix prior to the god's return, which makes it more difficult for them or their allies to oppose us.

The player character is one of if not the most lucky and exceptional being in the universe. We are by no means a good indication of the general success or failures of any given system because we are just about made of plot armor.

21-Mar-2017 03:19:13 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 03:28:13 by Hguoh

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
So you either lose your freedom entirely because they crush you before you can become powerful enough to stop them (not because of any of your own merits/failings but because they established their power before you did)

No, because you were an idiot who rushed in without thinking or examining the situation. Keep your head down until you've figured the situation out and can fight a realistic battle.

Hguoh said :
have your freedoms limited by your alliance

Explain.

Hguoh said :
or manage to beat completely overwhelming odds (almost certainly due to a large amount of luck rather than your own merits (aka: the Zammy just so happened to have the Siphon which told him how to beat Zaros, situation)).

He didn't "happen" to have anything. The only reason he challenged Zaros is because he had the staff. If he didn't have the staff, the fight wouldn't have happened--whether that be for some time or indefinitely depending on how he took Zaros' next course of action.

Hguoh said :
No, I do not. I'm acknowledging that one leads to the other and vice versa.

They are in no way related. Power is simply a tool that can get you what you want. You can control people, you can liberate people. You can create war, you can create peace. Power itself is in no way connected to any of these elements, but it can pursue them.

Hguoh said :
It is in the best interests of the powerful to keep others from gaining enough power to oppose them so as to facilitate them continuing to be powerful

This is idiotic. There is no reason to limit enemies when you can kill them. There is no reason to limit allies as this creates enemies. There is no reason to limit subordinates, because this makes your organization weaker and, as an extension of yourself, it makes you weaker. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2017 09:19:32 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 09:20:31 by Hazeel

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
But here's the thing, if you make it so that those people with strong will and drive can't readily access the means to oppose you, you tend to start breaking that strong will and drive and cripple all but the most serious uprisings against you.

Not at all. You only create a cause. Uprisings have always started when a tyranny becomes more and more oppressive.

Hguoh said :
And ally up? I'd like to point out again that you're the one whose opinion is that such systems inherently limit freedoms and create discontent. At that point, your power entirely depends on you and your ally appeasing each other

Appeasing each other? In what way? A true ally should share my motives. My victory is their victory by default and vice versa. if we share knowledge and advancement, we both gain without any cost.

Hguoh said :
Yes, and it should be fairly clear at this point that we are the exception rather than the rule.

Irrelevant. It matters not if the majority benefit from this or not. All that matters is that those who are worthy benefit from it.

Hguoh said :
For one, we had a chance to gain power while not being allowed to permanently die. For two, we generally gained the necessary power to stand a chance against those who would oppose us prior to showing up on their radar

It is as I said, don't go barking at people if you don't have the bite to back it up. Pick your battles wisely and lay low until you have the power to stand tall. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2017 09:21:15

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Hguoh said :
Giras said :
Hugoh, I don't think you understand the difference between honoring a deal and forcing service. Zamorak doesn't force anyone to serve him, but if they -consciously and willingly- enter into an agreement they should rightfully keep to that agreement unless Zamorak breaks it first.

The Old Blood literally details a case of Zamorak sending Drakan to 'ask' Azzanadra to serve Zamorak or die. How is that not attempting to force service?

The Book of the Gods literally details a case of Zamorak setting fire to a village so that they would act in an method that he wanted them to, and he did so without regard to their opinion on the matter. How is that not forcing them to live as he wanted when they're only other alternative would be to be destroyed by the fire he started?
That was Drakan, Zamorak's wording is unknown. For all we know Zamorak could've easily said "Convince Azzanadra" and Drakan took it as "death threat."

As for the village, you do understand that Zamorak put out most of the fire before letting them deal with it right? The village could've easily chosen to not learn anything and go back to their original lives after repairing the damage that Zamorak knew was easy to deal with.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 16:29:44

Giras
Sep Member 2012

Giras

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Rifleavenger said :
Snip
If you go back to the actual book of Zamorak, you'll notice that Zamorak put out most of the fire he started. There was never really any real danger, so your examples are full of shit. What you're doing is comparing giving a vaccine to jamming rusty nails into a person's feet.
I'm no one's servant!

Good. Never let anyone think differently
.

21-Mar-2017 16:41:38

Hazeel

Hazeel

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It's been a looong time...like, over a year, but I recall one of the JMods commenting on the village fire. If memory serves, they said there were some deaths within the fire, but they were from people "Zamorak considered weak".

*shrug* Life moves on. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2017 17:16:49

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