RuneScape Forum Archive | Seren: Pulling Zaros' Rug

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Raleirosen said :
Cthris said :
However, suspension of disbelief does not work for axiomatic truths, 1 + 1 = 2, or being nothing being able to act upon nothing because the human mind is cannot fathom anything other than these truths. Try writing a story that is based on the conception of 1 + 1 = 7 and see how that turns out for you. To quote MST3K...

"Just repeat to yourself: it's just a show,
I should really just relax."

Had to look up what MST3K is lol but isn't the premises that the host is watching really bad movies, which is kind of my point

The whole "created from nothing" is terrible writing.

Also since you're wasting your time with this, does this make you more Pado than Pado is Pado, so in the future we should say Pado is pulling a Ral

21-Jan-2017 00:17:59 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 00:20:02 by Cthris

Raleirosen

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Cthris said :
Had to look up what MST3K is lol but isn't the premises that the host is watching really bad movies, which is kind of my point

The whole "created from nothing" is terrible writing. No... it's really not. You're just a poor audience member who's cripplingly hung up on definitions. The literal, philosophical definition of "nothing" is just not applicable here, and more importantly not usable anywhere outside of philosophy.

Cthris said :
Also since you're wasting your time with this, does this make you more Pado than Pado is Pado, so in the future we should say Pado is pulling a Ral

Ahhhh, you caught me. tfw you confuse a philosopher of antiquity with a misspelling of Padomenes *facepalm* Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

21-Jan-2017 00:41:45 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 00:53:52 by Raleirosen

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Raleirosen said :
You're just a poor audience member who's cripplingly hung up on philosophical definitions.
I oddly take a fair amount of pride in that...

Original message details are unavailable.
Ahhhh, you caught me. tfw you confuse a philosopher of antiquity with a misspelling of Padomenes *facepalm*
To be fair, some of the responsibility is probably mine because of my usual laziness to look up how to spell words that I don't know how to spell

21-Jan-2017 00:57:39

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Raleirosen said :
You're just a poor audience member who's cripplingly hung up on philosophical definitions.
I oddly take a fair amount of pride in that...

Original message details are unavailable.
Ahhhh, you caught me. tfw you confuse a philosopher of antiquity with a misspelling of Padomenes *facepalm*
To be fair, some of the responsibility is probably mine because of my usual laziness to look up how to spell words that I don't know how to spell

21-Jan-2017 00:57:40

Raleirosen

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Cthris said :
To be fair, some of the responsibility is probably mine because of my usual laziness to look up how to spell words that I don't know how to spell

Entirely my fault. On this forum, whenever I see a multiple-syllable word starting with a capital P, I tend to automatically read it as Padomenes.

In any case, agree to disagree. I personally think you're wasting your time worrying about this, though. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

21-Jan-2017 01:07:51 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 01:09:22 by Raleirosen

HeroicSnorro

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If I may redirect your attention to the Casimir effect. I don't know how familiar you are with quantum physics, but it basically boils down to a vacuum *always* having some sort of residual energy attached to it.

Now, if we are to extend this principle to a fantasy universe with beings as Elder gods and such, it is definitely plausible that Elder gods are able to convert this basically limitless energy source into matter through E =mc2, 'willing' matter into existence as seen through the eyes of regular people in the RS universe.

Now, you've got two avenues to enter:
I. Direct 'life'
II. Indirect 'life'

Everything biological and evolutionary falls under category II and is inherently different from the creator. Now, our only examples of category I life are Zaros and Seren, together with the Mahjarrat and the Muspah. As Zaros and Seren are more akin to their creator (let's face it, without the divine energy both of them would be an inanimate pile of crystals) they cannot officially be classified as 'living'.

This can also be seen during ascension of a god. They are sacrificing their mortal soul (inherently tied to category II life) to become more like category I life. In practice it does not make them any less living, but on a biological level they have ceased to exist. They now occupy a higher state of being, not dependent upon the mechanisms on which category II life flourishes.

I personally think this is the main difference between the Elder Gods and the rest of the gods. As soon as you are able to create an independently operating organic construct possessing a mortal soul and capable of procreation you've essentially made life.

(Continued) Sometimes, less is more.

21-Jan-2017 04:26:41 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 04:35:34 by HeroicSnorro

HeroicSnorro

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Now, continuing this train of thought, it becomes clear why Eluned and Haluned cannot officially be categorised as 'alive'. They may have turned into proper elves over time, but in the end they do not have a mortal soul. In the biological sense they may be categorised as such, but in the complete picture they are lacking. If this weren't the case the Elder Gods and Seren herself would have acknowledged the fact that she actually did make life.

The Mahjarrat also fit this bill. They are essentially a different state of being which does not fit the term 'living' in the biological sense. They may look like the part, and in practice can be regarded as 'alive', but their apparent lack of mortal soul does not ship them with the complete package.

I hope this makes sense!

-=HeroicSnorro=- Sometimes, less is more.

21-Jan-2017 04:26:48 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 04:30:53 by HeroicSnorro

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Ah but a vacuum is not nothingness (Or at least the more common understanding of a vacuum). Remember the anti-definition of nothingness is that nothingness has no property, and as it has no property, it has no function. However, a vacuum is empty space that performs the function of having capacity to hold something, or allowing something to pass through it. Thus nothingness is distinct from vacuums because nothingness cannot hold anything, nor can anything pass through nothing. In fact, Descartes would even hold that empty space is matter in and of itself.

For this reason, I do not believe that the Casimir effect can be extended towards this problem. The elder gods are still not creating from nothing, so it is silly for them to demand others to do this impossible feat.

Also, the Elder gods have been demonstrated to have only a finite amount of energy, this is why they must feed, and needed to create the stone of jas. If they were tapping into the infinite amount of residual energy found within natural vacuums of the rs universe then why do they need to create flora and fauna for feeding, they could simply feed directly off the residual energy.

Furthermore, I believe your reliance on a soul to prove life is problematic because:

a) we have no confirmation that all life has souls. Does a human embryo have a soul? Does an Amoeba have a soul? If an amoeba has a soul does a single cell have a soul? Does an insect have a soul? Do the Avernic have souls? These are all things we might consider to be life, but might not have souls.

b) In Runescape, souls are pure energy, and are convertible to divine energy (As demonstrated by the creation of the god gielinor). Presumably, you can convert the opposite way as well. (Divine locations would probably be a good example of divine energy becoming soul energy.) As such, we cannot definitively say Eluned and Haluned never had mortal souls.

21-Jan-2017 05:36:53

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Continuing on a)

So much life fits into neither of the categories that you have identified. The Tzharr and the Tok'harr also are a contradiction. The Tzharr are the evolutionary descendants of the Tok'harr, and as they reproduce they are biological. Under your classification, they fall under category II. Yet, they are not distinct, and are quite similar to the elder gods. (Even more so than Zaros and Seren.)

21-Jan-2017 05:45:23

HeroicSnorro

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Do Tzhaar have mortal souls? That is a very interesting question to ask indeed. An unintended deviation from a Category I species (TokHaar), producing something more akin to category II.

Brink of extinction spoilers ahead!

During the Tzhaar quests we find out that when Tzhaar die, they pertrify and turn into TokKul. There is no afterlife for them, as their spirits are still bound to the Elder Kiln, fusing back into the primeval TokHaar hivemind. So despite Tzhaar showing more Category II traits they still belong to Category I using this information.

You have a point on solely relying on the Casimir effect. If the source were infinite the Elders wouldn't need to do all this world forging at all. Then again, it is a *very* weak force, and you'll most likely need vast amounts of vacuum to even solidify the tiniest bit of matter from it. It could be a means to the end: the first tentative steps to making a universe. Once you get your first world done, produced a bit of proper anima you've got some of your own energy to start off with. Make some more worlds, harvest more of it and eventually steamroll through the world forging without relying on something as 'primitive' as relying on effects like I mentioned before.

And I think it was mentioned somewhere that all life produces anima. However, intelligent life seems to produce a significant greater amount. Correlating intelligence to anima content it seems like the soul (and thus anima content) of an amoeba or embryo will not be that anima-rich, with the key difference between the two being that an embryo can grow into so much more. As the capacity for experiencing experiences increases, so does the richness of a soul (as suggested by Kindred spirits)

As for the two categories, it was the best I could think of at the time. I am aware that the line dividing the two isn't that clear, as magic and such also play a very real role in this universe.

Interesting discussion

-=HeroicSnorro=- Sometimes, less is more.

21-Jan-2017 06:29:51

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Seren: Pulling Zaros' Rug