RuneScape Forum Archive | Seren: Pulling Zaros' Rug

Hguoh

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Cthris said :
Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart

It is admittedly a weird boundary, but I think you have to consider one rather important thing: elder god magic manifests as crystal.

Anything made only from the elder god's power would be of crystal as well. As most life is not made of/part crystal, this would indicate that they are not directly made of the elder gods' power. Rather, it would seem that the elder gods' power wills materials into existence and everything else (including life) is then made from those materials.

In Seren's case, she split her consciousness and mind, which is much more like, for example, a human having a baby than it is like the elder gods creating life.

At least, that is how I see it.

20-Jan-2017 13:58:38

Jan

2021

AesirWarrior

Posts: 1,060 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Cthris said :
Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart

Rather, it would seem that the elder gods' power wills materials into existence and everything else (including life) is then made from those materials.

Well.... I'm not so sure. They created the universe out of sacred clay after all. And I'm not sure if they actually created the primordial realm. -

I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?

- We call it being a hero.

20-Jan-2017 14:31:39

Raleirosen

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Cthris said :
Raleirosen said :
It's that simple. Are we clear? Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart No, no... the correct answer was "Crystal."

In any case, my initial point was that because the characters aren't treating it as the same, it's only logical to assume that it really isn't the same. And then I gave you a verbatim in-game quote from Seren saying she didn't create life from nothing, which is in turn said to be a defining ability of the Elders.

Really, the source of your confusion is simply you agonizing over a literal interpretation of the word "nothing," which is in my opinion over-intellectualizing the situation. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Jan-2017 14:45:54 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 14:49:58 by Raleirosen

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

AesirWarrior said :
Hguoh said :
Cthris said :
Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart

Rather, it would seem that the elder gods' power wills materials into existence and everything else (including life) is then made from those materials.

Well.... I'm not so sure. They created the universe out of sacred clay after all. And I'm not sure if they actually created the primordial realm.

The elder chronicles seem to indicate that sacred clay originated from BIk.

Personally, I think the primordial realm is merely one of the earliest worlds of this cycle (one of those countless worlds devoid of life Zaros passed on his way to Infernus), during a time when the elders hadn't developed their world sculpting skills far enough to really attempt much with life.

20-Jan-2017 14:54:04

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Cthris said :
Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart

It is admittedly a weird boundary, but I think you have to consider one rather important thing: elder god magic manifests as crystal.

Anything made only from the elder god's power would be of crystal as well. As most life is not made of/part crystal, this would indicate that they are not directly made of the elder gods' power. Rather, it would seem that the elder gods' power wills materials into existence and everything else (including life) is then made from those materials.

I have 2 points

Point one: If we make it so that a lack of crystal/divine energy in a created being is our requirement for making life, then this disallows considering the mahjarrat as a living beings. I find this to be a rather unsatisfactory conclusion.

Point two: "Rather, it would seem that the elder gods' power wills materials into existence "
Okay, lets suppose it is simply by will of the elder gods that causes things to come into being and then there is no energy transfer from the elder god to the materials they create. What then is the point of the stone of jas? Ultimately this leads us to the conclusion that the Elder Gods have a finite amount of will. This is unsatisfactory to me since humans have a potential infinite* amount of will. Which would put their intelligence more on par with robots then life.

*If you're unfamiliar with potential infinites, the jist of it is that it's reaching towards infiniteness, but never achieving it

20-Jan-2017 15:27:54 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:31:48 by Cthris

Dec

2023

Cthris

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It also leads us to the conclusion that the stone's power is will. But if will is power, because power has to be stored somewhere, then the elder gods must be at least partly made of will. If they are made of will then they are simply generating from their own beings, which is what Seren did.

Also:
Hguoh said :

In Seren's case, she split her consciousness and mind, which is much more like, for example, a human having a baby than it is like the elder gods creating life.
At least, that is how I see it.

Before I get into my own understand, I would like to point out that split probably is not the right word. Split means to break into two parts. If Seren split her consciousness one part would lack the other part. I doubt she intentionally fractured her (her being the largest part/not the twins) memories when creating the twins. Rather Seren copied some of her consciousness into the twins

Since when did anyone have a baby by splitting their conscious? The way I see it is that the elder gods create life the same way you might invent a character for a book. The thoughts, motives, knowledge, and general psych come from your own conscious. This is self-evident due to the fact that unless it's in your conscious you cannot conceptualize it. So in a sense it's copying something within your consciousness into your narrative, or in Seren or the elder gods case, into reality.

20-Jan-2017 15:31:24 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:42:38 by Cthris

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Raleirosen said :
Cthris said :
Raleirosen said :
It's that simple. Are we clear? Not entirely. Like I said in my post I don't understand. Pretty much the only reason we are given for them not being the same is that people don't treat it the same.

And like I said, we can't expect anyone to create out of nothing because not evenness the elder gods do that. You could even say that all life created is a part of the elder god, since it comes from their own energy, and has its memories erased. Like haluends counterpart No, no... the correct answer was "Crystal."

In any case, my initial point was that because the characters aren't treating it as the same, it's only logical to assume that it really isn't the same. And then I gave you a verbatim in-game quote from Seren saying she didn't create life from nothing, which is in turn said to be a defining ability of the Elders.

Really, the source of your confusion is simply you agonizing over a literal interpretation of the word "nothing," which is in my opinion over-intellectualizing the situation.
I think you've misunderstood my motive here. I also believe that what Seren has done is unsatisfactory. However, I am dissatisfied with the conclusion for why the two acts are not the same being "just cause". I think Jagex needs to identify that there is a problem here.

20-Jan-2017 15:34:19

Hguoh

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For Point one, the Mahjarrat are also significant parts flesh (the only crystal making them up is that which is on their foreheads). It's not an exclusion of crystal in the created lifeform, just that crystal is an indication of being directly created from elder god power (in other words, the Mahjarrat, the Muspah, Zaros, and Seren would be the only lifeforms created from elder god power rather than being made out of nothing).

For Point two, what I'm trying to say is that the material isn't made from the elder god's power. They use their power to conjure it up, but the power itself isn't converted into the material. Rather, it is the nothing that gets converted, while the power is used up (rendering it unsuitable for further use).

It's a bit of an odd concept that really doesn't make that much sense, but that kind of comes with the territory of the fantasy genre.

20-Jan-2017 15:37:19 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:38:37 by Hguoh

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
For Point one, the Mahjarrat are also significant parts flesh (the only crystal making them up is that which is on their foreheads). It's not an exclusion of crystal in the created lifeform, just that crystal is an indication of being directly created from elder god power (in other words, the Mahjarrat, the Muspah, Zaros, and Seren would be the only lifeforms created from elder god power rather than being made out of nothing).

For Point two, what I'm trying to say is that the material isn't made from the elder god's power. They use their power to conjure it up, but the power itself isn't converted into the material. Rather, it is the nothing that gets converted, while the power is used up (rendering it unsuitable for further use).

It's a bit of an odd concept that really doesn't make that much sense, but that kind of comes with the territory of the fantasy genre.

1) Ah but would you not say the twins contain flesh too? So what's the difference? Either both the twins and the mahjarrat are life, or neither are.

2) Nothing cannot be acted upon, otherwise it can't be nothing. Thus nothing cannot be converted. It's not the case that it doesn't make much sense, but the case that it makes no sense. This is an unsatisfactory explanation that is completely unnecessary.

20-Jan-2017 15:46:02 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:49:37 by Cthris

Hguoh

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Cthris said :
1) Ah but would you not say the twins contain flesh too? So what's the difference?

2) Nothing cannot be acted upon, otherwise it can't be nothing. Thus nothing cannot be converted. It's not the case that it doesn't make much sense, but the case that it makes no sense.

1) Well, no, I wouldn't. They were shards of Seren's being split off and acting autonomously from her. If anything, they were just crystal imitating flesh. And even if they were flesh, she wouldn't have made it, all of the material comprising them came from her physical being (as in, she didn't create it).

2) I said it didn't really make sense. But that comes with the territory when dealing with fantasy.

20-Jan-2017 15:49:05 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2017 15:51:22 by Hguoh

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Seren: Pulling Zaros' Rug