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History of the Kinshra - Edits

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William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hazeel said :
It just sounds unprofessional and writing, so some rewording might help, but the most glaring issue is how little sense it makes. Now if the Kinshra was once a noble organization that people aspired too and looked up to as heroes, it'd make sense for them to join now and be disappointed that it's fallen so far. It'd also add to their desire to want to rebuild it to its former glory.

But as it is...it's like joining the *** and being disappointed because it's filled with nasty, mean spirited racists, but instead of leaving, you try to find a way to fix it and make it better. It's just illogical.

So, something like...

"I brought this on myself with my naivety and idealism. I dismissed the things I heard as being exaggerations, and came here expecting to find a Kinshra that existed only in my own imagination. My philosophy is not theirs.

My one friend here has already deserted, dissatisfied with the conflict between the Kinshra's methods and his ideals. That might be the sane course of action. It's one I consider almost daily. I have seen and learned much in my short time here..."

This part of what you said actually sounds really cool, by the way: "Now if the Kinshra was once a noble organization that people aspired too and looked up to as heroes, it'd make sense for them to join now and be disappointed that it's fallen so far. It'd also add to their desire to want to rebuild it to its former glory."

Not sure how to reconcile that with the other lore on the subject, though... But that kind of "idealistically ignoring what you hear" does mirror my own personal experience with a particular fandom. I chose to believe they were misunderstood and unfairly slandered, because that's exactly what they pretend when defending themselves online. Then I found out the things people say about them actually *are* true...

Not sure whether I was subconsciously drawing on that or if it's just coincidence, but
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

02-Sep-2015 20:30:59

William Witt
Aug Member 2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
if it happened to me I guess it could maybe happen to him too? Especially considering the writer was pretty young at the time he wrote this text - probably around that "idealistic rebel" phase. But ***ualizing underage horses isn't *exactly* the same thing as torture/slavery, I guess. And your thing does sound really cool.
The Asgarnian ale must flow.

02-Sep-2015 20:33:40

Zoli Ben
Dec Member 2023

Zoli Ben

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I support the new version fully! Dishonour among Thieves has shown us new way in the Kinshra. The current one that is in game in my opinion has Anti-Zamorakian bias and was vandalised. It is time we settle in a new story that is up to date with the recent happenings.

Hazeel, how exactly is this more Anti-Zamorak than the vandalised one?

03-Sep-2015 19:13:56

Hazeel

Hazeel

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@Zoli Ben

The current one shows us that the Kinshra was once a respected organization that was unjustly blamed for what the Blue Order did as well as a few incidents from a minority and that it has simply lost its way since then.

The new one shows us that the Kinshra has always been filled with scumbags since the very beginning, has never been a decent organization, has never accurately represented the Zamorakian philosophy, but only the corrupt cultish philosophy, and has been bad from beginning to end.

We know the Kinshra is definitely not doing well now, but whereas the old one paints this as a slip that they could hopefully recover from, the new one paints this as the norm and shows us that it has always been a vile organization. Not to mention there's the lorefail that contradicts DAT. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

03-Sep-2015 22:30:16

Rondstat

Rondstat

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I think it's worth the effort of getting the proposed version in. It certainly exceeds the current version from a storytelling perspective, and fulfills a function that all lorehounds should care about.

There's something that hasn't been much discussed, and that is the audience for this book. Death of Chivalry is not a grandmaster. It's not something the adventurer comes across after a long and illustrious career. It is a novice quest, and most of the people playing through it the first time, exploring the fortress and discovering these bits of hidden lore, are new players. We need to reel them in, get them interested in the lore early, and make it a key part of their questing experience.

Remember, more people interested in lore=more people interested in quests=more motivation for Jagex to produce quests

There are issues with the current version. Some shaky runecrafting lore. The fact that it's a commissioned piece, which raises the issue of propaganda. But most concerting is that, at points, it can get dry. The whole thing reads like a textbook. And while that is great for lorehounds, new players and those who aren't particularly invested in the lore might become bored, set it down, and spacebar through the rest of the quest. All it does now is give our community more fodder for theorycrafting, and really, you could rewrite the whole thing as Dulcin's tax return and the hardcore lorehounds would pore over every number.

The proposed version, by contrast, draws readers in.

Perhaps the nature of Zamorak's philosophy has always been vulnerable to twisting and misrepresentation. All it took was someone twisted enough to attempt it.

This appears near the top of the book. You're instantly intrigued - what does it mean? Who was this twisted person? You want to keep reading, and suddenly a new player cares about Zamorak and the Kinshra.

04-Sep-2015 01:54:00

Rondstat

Rondstat

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One of the greatest strengths (lorefully) of the proposed version is that it regularly draws contrasts between true Zamorakian philosophy and Zamorakianism as many people have twisted it today. Across most of Gielinor, Zamorakians are villains, twirling their whiskers and wreaking havoc for no good reason. A new player might be confused why anyone would want to ally with "evil" when their character is supposed to be the hero of Gielinor. I think this does a good job of rectifying this disconnect.

The writing might not seem as 'smooth' or 'professional,' but that sort of criticism is missing the point. It's not a commissioned report by some stodgy historian, left to fill new recruits' required reading lists. It's an impassioned condemnation by a disillusioned young soldier. And a passionate diatribe is infinitely more interesting than an impartial catalogue of events.

This lore demands a voice, and the proposed journal finally gives it one.

04-Sep-2015 01:55:21

Rondstat

Rondstat

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Some other concerns have been voiced, particularly about how this volume characterizes the Kinshra. I'm a bit puzzled by this - why is there a sudden impetus to paint the black knights as a perfect representation of Zamorakian strength and self improvement? When have they ever appeared in game as anything other than selfish, brutal, or downright malevolent?

The only in game source that paints them otherwise is DAT, and I think it's reasonable to assume that the leader of an organization would paint it in a slightly more favourable light than it necessarily deserves.

Otherwise, they are villains, plotting the destruction of cities, targetting civillians, allying with evil necromancers bent on godhood. They only appear as an ally during the Void Stares Back, and even then it's reluctant, a force of vengeance in a partnership of convenience while our hero serves Guthixians and Saradominists. To present the Kinshra any other way is revisionist, and may only confuse newer players.

Now, there are plenty of glowing words said about Daquarius. But praise for an individual is not praise for an organization. He is a reformer, not the typical Kinshra solder, and judging the black knights by this one individual is like going back to the US civil war and judging the whole Confederate army by Robert E. Lee.

04-Sep-2015 01:56:36

Rondstat

Rondstat

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Now, I'm not going to claim this version is absolute perfection. You're going to have to hold out forever if that's what you're waiting for. But it's just as well-written as any lore book in game (and better-written than a good deal of them).

There's only one thing that I think demands revision, and that's dark wizards-red wizards. Rune Memories makes it clear that 'Red Wizard' was the preferred term of the era. And while this volume is supposed to have been written a few decades after that, it still runs the risk of newer players becoming confused. They might not be acquainted with the convention of "dark" as a synonym for "Zamorakian," and they may take the term to refer to the residents of the Dark Wizard's Tower or the Chaos Tunnels.

Conversely, Rune Mysteries/Memories will likely be a part of their early questing experience, and the concept of 'Red Wizards' will be instantly familiar to them, allowing budding lorehounds the pleasure of connecting two separate lore threads in the grand tapestry of Gielinor history.
Did I get too flowery there? I think I got too flowery.

04-Sep-2015 02:14:40

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Of course the Kinshra are villains now, but giving them a positive past adds depth to their character. It keeps people interested. Black and white characters are immensely boring and if this is what people see all the time, they'll just lose interest in the lore because it's bland writing. We have enough black and white villains--hell, we have too many black and white villains and it's beyond dull. We need interesting gray characters and organizations that make us question our choices.

It's much more interesting to know that there are decent Kinshra people who might stand up and try to overthrow its corrupt leadership and try to restore themselves to how they were in the old days.

But honestly, personal preferences aside, this new story could never work. Its origin story of the "evil Zamorakians" beginning completely contradicts DAT and is a massive lorefail. And seeing how important that is for this for this version of the story, it'd completely ruin the book and make it nothing more than inaccurate fanfiction. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

04-Sep-2015 02:25:29

Mod Stu

Mod Stu

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Ah, I see this thread is back from the dead. :)

Ren Bo Dash, I like the writing in your new text (starting on page 9). As noted by others, the personal touch and dramatic beats make it a good read.

The main issue I have is it establishes the Kinshra were founded on Bishop Lungrim's unorthodox Zamorakianism (notably excluding the "Destruction must serve a purpose" principle). As noted earlier in the thread, this would contradict Dishonour Among Thieves if introduced, and so I need to continue to operate within established canon.

I think it makes the Kinshra more redeemable and has more opportunity for storytelling conflict if they remain founded on the core principles of Zamorakianism, but schisms exist within the order. Over time, the members of the Kinshra have had differing interpretations of those ideals. Unfortunately, the extremists get the most attention and are the most dangerous, both to the Kinshra's reputation and the public.

Also, what I needed from this thread, when first posted in February, was not a replacement/supplement text, but a bullet-point list of the text you'd like changed in The History of the Kinshra.

There's still opportunity for minor amendments to History of the Kinshra if you can muster a consensus (eg could change "dark wizards" to "red wizards" in the book text). However, the opportunity to make significant revisions to the History of the Kinshra text has now passed.

We're at a point where the History of the Kinshra has been canon for some time, and forms the foundation for upcoming content. Notably the Invasion of Falador - which we've already had to implement in order to meet our deadlines - which will build on Raddallin's backstory and the history of the Kinshra.

04-Sep-2015 13:15:49 - Last edited on 04-Sep-2015 15:45:25 by Mod Stu

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