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DoogleHallow

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*ahem* Allow me to clear up this debate:

Hallowvale and the Hallowlands were established at the dawn of the 4th Age by the Icyene when they drove out the Drakans using unknown means, we know this from a book of 4th Age history we find over the course of the series. Previous to this it was known as Morytania, as it was afterwards it became Morytania again. The Slayer Tower diary does not state the location of the Saradomnists, only that Zaros led the humans out on excursions to fight them. We do not currently know where the Saradomnists were located during the 2nd Age. Therefore, Senliten is entirely correct when she says he is plotting in the dark lands of Morytania.

I would advise you not to take your information from any of the wikis, learn the lore by yourself by hand and everything makes much more sense. The pages from the wiki are years old and the tidbit about Hallowvale existing in the 2nd Age likely came about years ago when we believed it to be the case. The Burgh de Rott tome suggested that there was two invasions of the area, one Icyenic then a second Vampyric, and some of the old evidence backs this up.

However I haven't looked at this Senliten quote recently, I will go investigate promptly

26-May-2013 10:58:25

Pupppy II

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- you are trying to base all your information on the Ancient Tome ('The Sleeping Seven'), that supposedly [indirectly] states that Efaritay was out there at fourth age - the same book that states at its start:

Original message details are unavailable.
The datum here are vague at best and no truer gauge could be hardly best sought. (...) With my rudimentary abilities I prevailed to update the place names of those dark times and instead use those which are in common use so as to give meaning where previously there was confusion. - it is a book written by a mortal human, a priest of Paterdomus, trying to account the happening of past he does not know (or at least confirms the confusion about)

moreover, the book 'states' a date in which he thinks Efaritay lost her lands, but in no way states when she started its occupation. The likely situation is that she has kept the Hallowvale lands ever since she and her people were brought to this world by god Saradomin himself.

- what is the name of the burgh de rott tome? not sure which one you talk about

- Fall of Hallowvale is featured in AoG. In there, lord Drakan conquers the land from the icyene queen Efaritay.

Recent faqs from the jmods had stated that lord Lowerniel Drakan joins whoever has the best offer (about if he will fight for zamy or zaros), implying that he had joined zamorak in betrayal of zaros because here was already offered the morytania lands he sought for (fact which zaros either did not own power to accomplish, or that he did not wish to do so for some reason) .

Furthermore, zamorakian beasts such as werewolves and undead did only fight for Drakan due to direct influence of their god Zamorak; at fourth age little would he influence them into joining his cause, to then be oppressed by his reign.

26-May-2013 18:17:33 - Last edited on 26-May-2013 19:06:27 by Pupppy II

Pupppy II

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- Fall of the Six, from lores and histories, is played at the god wars, and tells the story of a huge (saradominist) human army, led by the Six Barrows Brothers, invading the lands of morytania (said to already been dipped into darkness). They, however, were betrayed by Sliske (who empowered their armors) at the very last moment, when they were 'about to conquer the heart of the dark lands' - which you can assume it was Drakan's city, Meiyerditch; for the barrows tomb is located just outside of its walls.

- at 1100-1200 years of fourth age (the 800 years ago stated at ancient tome) is when happened the war between Misthalin (of a Remanis king, of same linage of Roald) and Morytania. In such war, morytania, of lord Drakan, attempted to invade misthalin, not the contrary.

Such war is mentioned several times at Return to Canifis rs novel. It for example, tells the tale of the Five Princes of Misthalin (who have fought in the war before the Seven Priestly Warriors). These 5 princes were leaders of misthalin's army against the vampyre at the time (4 died [the four statues of varrock square] , 1 survived).

Being the five princes humans, this is proof that in such war Efaritay, or her icyenes, did never participate of what you call a 'icyene invasion to take back Hollowvale'. This was exclusively between humans west of river Salve, and the minions of lord Drakan, of east of it (vampyres and werewolves, at least).

Later on, would the Seven Priestly Warriors take lead of the western humans side at the war, and drive out the vampyres from their lands. They would then bless the river Salve to not allow any vampyre to pass ever again, so another war could not happen. Paterdomus Temple was built on top of their bless.

Never was it mentioned that the priests manage to return morytania to the old green lands it once were. Simply they blocked the vampyres from spreading their darkness further from the river.

26-May-2013 18:36:05 - Last edited on 26-May-2013 19:10:30 by Pupppy II

Pupppy II

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- even later, humans would 'invade' morytania: not for war, but for thinking it was now safe, they built towns at north, such as the lordship at the frenkenstein castle; or port phasmatys. When Drakan discovered about them, they were attacked: the castle people's died all; and port phasmatys people turned themselves into ectoplasm to not be hurt by vampyres.

26-May-2013 18:59:39

DoogleHallow

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The Burgh de Rott tome is the one in the tomb beneath the town that we find in Branches of Darkmeyer

Armies of Gielinor and the novels are not considered completely canon, so we shouldn't consider information from there to be completely reliable.

Promising someone land does not imply that it had to be conquered first. It may well have been the dividing of Zaros's territories among Zamoraks followers.

It was never stated that they only fought for Drakan under Zamoraks influence. The werewolves still enjoy Drakans reign, necromancy is not a race-dependent branch of magic and demons choose their allies as they please.

The Fall of Six invasion supports my theory: Drakan was in control at the end of the 3rd Age

The events of 1100-4th age are irrelevent, Drakan would be in control at this point regardless of when Hallowvale was.

"800 and score years into the history of our land" I tihnk is what your are refering to, wherein Queen E gets deposed and Drakan reclaims Morytania. Sometime after this the seven priestly warriors blessed the Salve and created the barrier.

It may just be me being tired, could you put this in a timeline form to compare to mine? I'm not in a particularly sensible state.

2nd Age - Zaros
3rd Age - Drakan
4th Age, 1-820 - Icyene
4th Age to present day - Drakan

26-May-2013 19:11:33

Pupppy II

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2nd age - Zaros had Kharyll, his only ancient teleport, and location of Viggora's fortress. Saradomin owned most of Hallowvale, in the reign of queen Efaritay.

3rd age - Efaritay at first;
Drakan conquers it later
*barrows army invades it, but fails to invade the city capital (so Drakan never lost hold of morytania still)

4th age - still Drakan's.
Drakan attempts invading Misthalin, and seven priests block him ultimately by the river salve bless (humans can still pass)

(so drakan remains ever since third age)

about date 800: you are still taking source on the facts of an author that doubts of his own dates...

edit: the '800 years ago' stated at the book brings you to 1200 fourth age aprox, which is the time of the Misthalin-Morytania War. The author mistakes the events of a human-vampyre war for Drakan taking Efaritay from power.

Game has clear source that heroes of the war 800 years ago were all humans , not a single proof is shown of icyene presence at time, at any of the locations.

about Viggora's case:

Original message details are unavailable.
I resolved to show them that humans were more than our lord's pets. I designed and built a vast fortress for myself naming it Viggora's Fortress. It towered high above the green lands; from the top I could look to the north-west and see half of Forinthry on a clear day. It was strong in its construction and cunning in its design, but also beautiful in its craftsmanship. Before my lord's other generals, I declared that my fortress was a testament to the talents of humankind in the service of our lord.

(...)The service of our lord took us on long expeditions, exterminating Saradominist filth,
First thing, it is a fortress, and doesn't make sense to locate it far away from battle. Fortinthy was Zaros', zarosian capital Sentiten at west, the menaphites are separated by the mountain chain of Silvarea; so enemy can only be at the east; and he declares the saradominist are the enemies

26-May-2013 19:22:04 - Last edited on 26-May-2013 19:39:14 by Pupppy II

Pupppy II

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And, finally, Viggora mentions the green lands beneath his fortress. It wasn't a supposed Efaritay reign at fourth age who turned it into green after she had supposedly defeated Drakan by then.

The lands of Efaritay were green, and the location was still green at second age; thus Efaritay ruled it in second age. When Drakan took it over, it turned dark.

just too tired to keep on this argument anymore now, sorry, but try reading what I said with calm

26-May-2013 19:39:20 - Last edited on 26-May-2013 19:43:24 by Pupppy II

[#TWA99I4ZX]

Posts: 2,486 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ok Puppy and Doogle, I've read all of your posts, so here's my analysis.

Puppy: As Doogle said, a lot of the sources you use are either non-canon (e.g. AoG), or you've misunderstood them. Mod Osborne never made explicit statements like those. On the other hand, there are sources which Doogle is taking into consideration which you have not.

One of the key pieces of evidence for the 'dual conquest' theory that Doogle propagates is Vertida Safalatis' explanation for the Icyene's presence in Morytania. During Branches of Darkmeyer (created by Mod Ana, not Mod Tytn, and therefore up-to-date), Vertida says that the Icyene came to Morytania in response to the Vampyres. In other words, Drakan was in Morytania before Efaritay was, and was considered singularly to be a threat.

Why was this the case? Most likely because he had overrun the Saradominist forces that were present in Morytania during the 2nd Age, as you point out. This would have happened sometime during the 3rd Age, and the Icyene's successful counter-attack and establishment of Hallowvale would have lasted until sometime in the Fourth Age, in which the author of the Burgh de Rott tome (another BoD item), most likely Drakan, launched his surprise attack against the Icyene and reestablished his domain.

Therefore, Viggora's fortress does not contradict the theory, and as Doogle said, the events of 1100, 4th Age are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Neither do the history books in the Paterdomus library contradict the theory, as they simply neglect to mention the pre-Icyene history. In fact, I recall using the 'examine' option on one of them which revealed that it was only 200 years old, further demonstrating that the history they talk about is relatively recent.

27-May-2013 19:07:18 - Last edited on 27-May-2013 19:36:40 by [#TWA99I4ZX]

Pupppy II

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my god, about the date:

current date: 169 of fifth age (or 1st sixth age which is 170th of fifth)

fourth age is believed to have lasted for 2000 years

169-200= 1960 fourth age = time it was written

now 1960 - 800 = 1160, time of misthalin-drakan war

we know, from Paterdomus lore; from Seven Priestly Warriors lore; from the Five Princes lore (you can't deny they didn't exist, the 4 statues of varrock square are the four fallen ones) that humans fought the drakans, and drove out his invasion from their lands at that time .

it is far from irrelevant that humans defeated an enemy that the holy icyene queen supposedly could not at same time...

my theory would be that ,if the priest who wrote the book can be trusted for a single moment, lord Drakan could have been keeping Efaritay kidnapped ever since her defeat at god wars; as the icyenes are either defeated imprisoned at the eastern sector of the capital to which we don't have access to; or then they were tortured to become the vyres.

Efaritay perhaps still holds power to get their strenghts back and fight Drakan's oppression; she might or might have not tried rebellion by time humans wared drakan at west (this being cause or consequence, can't really say); but failed as ultimate result.

You can't simply assume a whole icyene nation had been hiding since ever, waiting for an opportune moment to strike undesirable dark lands of vampyres.

They were the main power of Saradomin's army at the god wars, as said on many lore around; and were used extensively. (read Song From Before the War)

Go look at gwd's Battle for Godsword now, which was dated on late third age. Only one icyene fighting there, which happens to be the one Saradomin loves so much that he has revived from death at least once (rotm). Do you really think he wouldn't send more of his best warriors if he had any more left? To gwd the gods sent their best generals to lead their best armies.

28-May-2013 02:38:53 - Last edited on 28-May-2013 03:06:57 by Pupppy II

DoogleHallow

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Where is the -800 coming from? Copy out the exact quote and the location of it.

The books also state that Vanstrom is a young vampyre, whereas he has been around since the time of the Icyene. While there are teasers in game for the books, this may not necessarily make it canonical.

What Eastern sector of the capital? We have no idea what happened to the Icyene after Drakan seized control, that's one of the major pivotal mysteries of the plot. We have not considered that they are waiting to strike, they are almost certainly imprisoned or dead, but again that's a significant mystery.

28-May-2013 13:42:43

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