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NotFishing

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I think the pact was just insurance.

Zaros didn't want to make Zamorak into a martyr. We all know this.

But we also know that Zamorak would have had no qualms with killing Zaros. Zamorak would have actively attempted to hinder Zaros's plans, and could have been anything from a thorn in his side to a major threat.

Now he has that one favor to hang over Zamorak's head. Zamorak has to back off. If Zamorak becomes too much of a threat, Zaros could theoretically call it in and make him do something crazy - "kill yourself", "kill Khazard", "kill all of your followers", "surrender all strategic information."

Of course, there will eventually be a time when Zaros decides it is more worthwhile to call in the favor than hold it over Zamorak's head - "Give me the Stone" or "Attack Saradomin so I can escape." I also think that Zamorak will find a way out of it - he was defeated in two different ways in this quest alone, so Jagex will most likely have him regain his dignity and break his losing streak by outwitting Zaros. But for the time being, Zaros has Zamorak on a very loose leash. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

26-Nov-2016 02:32:51 - Last edited on 26-Nov-2016 03:05:39 by NotFishing

Raleirosen

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The pact is not insurance, and neither is it just a way to kill Zamorak. Zaros is the chessmaster of RuneScape. He sure as hell isn't going into the Endgame blindly; at the very least he has some idea of how he wants things to play out. If he's made Zamorak into a pawn (or if you prefer, a knight/bishop/rook), he has a very specific action in mind that will bring about a desired outcome.

So, basically:
god emperor plays 4d chess while the young gods and the mortals play trouble brewing in the sand Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

26-Nov-2016 05:38:51 - Last edited on 26-Nov-2016 05:42:11 by Raleirosen

Hazeel

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The specific plan is a maybe--or rather a likely, but not certain. There's no (forseeable) way for Zaros to know how this game is going down or what Sliske's plan is, so he may just be using Zamorak as insurance, though given how much he had to sacrifice to get this deal and how he clearly put in the effort of planning for Zamorak to take it, I think it's likely he at least as a general idea how he's going to use Zamorak. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

26-Nov-2016 07:39:00

NotFishing

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Zaros didn't really sacrifice anything though. All he had to do was keep a promise that he knew he could keep, and probably would have been going to keep anyways. The deal was actually quite onesided - Zamorak basically agreed at gunpoint.

Also Rale, I don't see why you think the pact can't be insurance. Zaros was ready to kill Zamorak but relented at the last moment - likely because Zamorak's last act would have been to empower the Mahjarrat, and Zaros doesn't want to risk losing the support of what few followers he still has, and make himself even more hated by the rest. Only at the last minute did he realize it would be better to leave Zamorak alive.

And I never said it was a way to kill Zamorak. That was just an example of what he could do, if Zamorak forced his hand. He could also ask Zamorak to marry him, or to kiss Saradomin's feet. He won't, but he could, and that is what matters.

Maybe he does have a specific purpose in mind. But that doesn't mean he can't use the favor as insurance down the road. And sometimes it is good to collect favours just for the sake of having them in case they prove useful. With Sliske's endgame coming up, Zaros probably wants as much pull with the other gods as he could possibly find. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

26-Nov-2016 13:15:30 - Last edited on 26-Nov-2016 14:24:29 by NotFishing

Raleirosen

Posts: 5,069 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

NotFishing said :
Also Rale, I don't see why you think the pact can't be insurance. Zaros was ready to kill Zamorak but relented at the last moment - likely because Zamorak's last act would have been to empower the Mahjarrat, and Zaros doesn't want to risk losing the support of what few followers he still has, and make himself even more hated by the rest. Only at the last minute did he realize it would be better to leave Zamorak alive.
That is what his dialogue suggests, but it was almost certainly a facade. CoM gives us a firsthand display of Zaros' manipulative prowess, and combined with his previous stance towards Zamorak (i.e. complete apathy) we have every reason to doubt his attempt on Zam's life. It doesn't make sense for him to flip flop like that.

As for the idea of insurance, that too is incompatible with Zaros' character. I just can't see the pact being an off-the-cuff moment where Zaros thought "Well, I might as well do this just in case. I'm sure I can think of something to do with it later." Totally absurd.

NotFishing said :
And I never said it was a way to kill Zamorak.
I know, that was a response to previous posts that suggested the possibility.

NotFishing said :
Maybe he does have a specific purpose in mind. But that doesn't mean he can't use the favor as insurance down the road. And sometimes it is good to collect favours just for the sake of having them in case they prove useful. With Sliske's endgame coming up, Zaros probably wants as much pull with the other gods as he could possibly find.
My point is that Zaros does not do things without a reason. The suggestion that he might not have a specific purpose in mind is ridiculous. He is not simply preparing for what Sliske's Endgame has in store for everyone; he is planning his own endgame, and Zamorak is now a part of it. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

26-Nov-2016 22:14:52 - Last edited on 26-Nov-2016 22:15:33 by Raleirosen

NotFishing

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Honestly, there is no real proof either way. Assuming that someone is always lying can be just as bad as assuming they always tell the truth.

But if Zaros was trying to make it look like a last minute thing, that meant he knew Khazard was Zamorak's son. He was trying to prove his intentions by transfering power to Khazard. So either he was genuinely trying to avoid a fight, or he was trying to provoke Zamorak into reacting.

But I would like to point out that keeping it as insurance is a reason.

Either way, there is really no way of knowing. But my points still stand - Zaros doesn't even have to call it in for it to be useful. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

27-Nov-2016 03:17:58 - Last edited on 27-Nov-2016 03:18:41 by NotFishing

Raleirosen

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NotFishing said :
Assuming that someone is always lying can be just as bad as assuming they always tell the truth. I never suggested that Zaros was "always lying" -- I pointed out Zaros' blatant deception during the quest, and concluded that if he was lying about one thing then he could just as easily lie about another. Besides, this is Zaros we're talking about; his track record and reputation speak for themselves. In his case, assuming he's always lying is 100% more logical than assuming he's never lying.

NotFishing said :
He was trying to prove his intentions by transfering power to Khazard. So either he was genuinely trying to avoid a fight, or he was trying to provoke Zamorak into reacting . Ding ding ding! If we can speculate over Khazard's parentage, Zaros can too.

NotFishing said :
But I would like to point out that keeping it as insurance is a reason. A bad reason that doesn't make sense in the context of Zaros' character. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

28-Nov-2016 03:38:38 - Last edited on 28-Nov-2016 04:11:45 by Raleirosen

NotFishing

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Raleirosen said :
I pointed out Zaros' blatant deception during the quest, and concluded that if he was lying about one thing then he could just as easily lie about another. Besides, this is Zaros we're talking about; his track record and reputation speak for themselves. In his case, assuming he's always lying is 100% more logical than assuming he's never lying.

I only saw him hiding the fact that his power was being drained too. All other examples were flashbacks to a time when he was much more arrogant and power-mad.

Raleirosen said :
A bad reason that doesn't make sense in the context of Zaros' character.

Zaros promised to help the Dragon Riders and Mahjarrat. He didn't know if he could. And when he failed, he kept the lie despite the fact that both races were likely to turn on him when they found out he was lying. He is not above making minor gambles.

And I'll say it again: that is a good reason. It's a get-out-of-all jail free card should Zamorak ever have him cornered with the upper-hand. It gives him more sway over what happens in Sliske's game. It forces an entire faction to step back with their attempts to thwart him.

You say Zaros is manipulative, and that is true. But what if he was pretending to have a specific goal in mind, when he actually didn't?

He could have killed Zamorak, but decided not to. But he still couldn't let Zamorak go without a slap on the wrist: he needed to ensure that he would no longer be a threat, and that there was some use he could get out of him. Do you really think Zaros is incapable of split-second decision making? Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

28-Nov-2016 04:48:10 - Last edited on 28-Nov-2016 04:49:37 by NotFishing

Hazeel

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Do people seriously think he just happened to choose Khazard? Why not Akthankos, who needed it the most? Or Wahisietel who was starting to feel neglected? How about Azzanadra, who is his most valuable follower?

It's obvious that Zamorak is very protective of the Mahjarrat. And if Zaros really wanted him to trust him, it would have been much easier to use one of his own followers as the test subject. Using any of the Zamorakian Mahjarrats would have gotten Zamorak defensive, but using his son has an added emotional benefit.

Did Zaros know Khazard was Zamorak's son? I don't know. But from what we know, it sounds like Mahjarrat traditionally have to be near Mah to breed. Zaros has been hanging around Mah for awhile and he didn't see any Mahjarrat come by to breed. But there's a new face he doesn't recognize from the second age. The fact that he even knows Khazard's name tells us that Azzanadra has talked about him and the Mahjarrat have spread rumors that Zamorak is the Father. Let's review the information:

-New Mahjarrat.
-Zamorakian.
-Raised by Zamorak's closest friend.
-No Mahjarrat have visited Mah, which means some other special breeding practice must have been used. Possibly beyond normal Mahjarrat means.
-Zamorak is rumored to be the Father.

Whether Zaros knew for certain or not, it was certainly enough information to make an educated guess. And even if he was wrong, he's still putting a Zamorakian Mahjarrat in harms way instead of offering one of his own followers. It's almost certain that he's going to get a reaction.

Say what you will about Zaros' intentions, but let's not pretend he's innocent or naive. I may see him as a sociopath, but he's intelligent too. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

28-Nov-2016 05:13:37 - Last edited on 28-Nov-2016 05:14:17 by Hazeel

Zack3

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Havent read the entire thread, will do it later but just wanted to share some thoughts
Raleirosen said :
NotFishing said :
Assuming that someone is always lying can be just as bad as assuming they always tell the truth. I never suggested that Zaros was "always lying" -- I pointed out Zaros' blatant deception during the quest, and concluded that if he was lying about one thing then he could just as easily lie about another. Besides, this is Zaros we're talking about; his track record and reputation speak for themselves. In his case, assuming he's always lying is 100% more logical than assuming he's never lying.
Agreed as a matter of fact he was lying in the quest when he said mah wanted to be sacrificed, considering that and the previous memories we were shown, there was more than enough data to conclude Zaros isnt to be trusted

Raleirosen said :
NotFishing said :
But I would like to point out that keeping it as insurance is a reason. A bad reason that doesn't make sense in the context of Zaros' character. If I was Zaros and focused on the most logical approach, my line of thought would be, killing Zamorak would turn him a martyr, and if I let him continue living without a leash it will bite my ass later (as we saw in quest) so I make a deal with him and keep him alive in a way I also take advantage of it in future plans, just having the deal work as an insurance would be a waste the best approach would be to take advantage of this.

Hazeel said :
Do people seriously think he just happened to choose Khazard? Why not Akthankos, who needed it the most? Or Wahisietel who was starting to feel neglected? How about Azzanadra, who is his most valuable follower?
Exactly if Zaros truly wanted to prove a point he would have used his own followers, yet he didn't, and of all he chose Khazard....

28-Nov-2016 06:02:03

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SPOILERS - ZAROS' PLAN

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Raleirosen

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Zack3