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SPOILERS - ZAROS' PLAN

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Hazeel

Hazeel

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Half Centaur said :
Did he know Khazard was his son?

So when he heard there was a new Mahjarrat, you think he just nodded his head and said "OK"? You don't think he asked for every bit of information he could? Like whose side Khazard was on, what he was like, how he even came to be? You don't think his Father and the rumored candidate--Zamorak--were brought up?

Half Centaur said :
Powering up a Zamorakian would mean more, as its more of a show of trust. If he powered up the Zarosians or Kharshai, they may just assume he only intends to power them up.

And yet out of all of them, you think he just happened to choose Khazard? And Zaros would seriously be dense enough to think Zamorak was going to be OK with this?

Half Centaur said :
Or, you can assume he was just trying to get Zamorak's goat, and it worked way better than he intended.

I'd say it went exactly as intended.

Half Centaur said :
Also, as for why Zaros would give them the rest of the energy- he did need them for the ritual,

He needed help draining Mah. He didn't need to distribute the power. THey had no idea what they were doing and simply following instructions. With the right direction, he could have drained them and Mah.

Half Centaur said :
I'd also wager that Zaros figured if he could get all the others on his side, which he kinda managed to do, it'd be more useful in the short term, dealing with Sliske, than elder godhood.

Except the exact opposite happened. The Mahjarrat are more united, yes, but the Zamorakians are still loyal to Zamorak while two of his three Zarosians are begining to question following him, because their increase in power makes them more immune to his aura.

The power might not be enough to make him an Elder God, but if he had absorbed Mah fully, he'd literally a million times the power he had before. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

29-Nov-2016 07:47:47

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Prime Axiom said :
So you're saying Zaros targeted Khazard because he wanted Zamorak to lash out at him?
There's no evidence of this. This is pure conjecture.

You think he just gave up the majority of an Elder God's power out of the goodness of his heart, even after it was made clear in this same quest he didn't give a damn about the Mahjarrat?

Prime Axiom said :
Singling out Khazard would be highly improbable. Khazard was born towards the end of the godwars, during the 3rd age. Zaros was removed at the end of the 2nd age. None of the Zarosian Mahjarrat knew of Khazard's identity, and it seems like this was a secret to even the Zamorakian Mahjarrat. Khazard himself didn't even know.

None of the Zarosian Mahjarrat knew about Khazard? ...I'm going to assume you meant his "father's identity" and to that...

Did you know Zamorak was Khazard's father?

We all had our suspicions. Zamorak may have a hatred of secrecy, but he has been reticent to talk about his whatdo you humans call it? Personal life.

Did they have confirmation? No. But they all had suspiscions, which I'm sure was relayed to Zaros when he inevitably asked how Khazard came to be given that they didn't have access to Mah. From there, I'm sure he put two and two together and realized that Zamorak likely used his godly power to achieve this. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

29-Nov-2016 08:01:40

Prime Axiom

Prime Axiom

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Who is to say he didn't take the majority of Mah's power from the ritual? It was never stated that Mah's power was shared between them equally. Mah had more power than all the Mahjarrat + Zaros + Seren combined, yet not one of the Mahjarrat ascended to godhood after receiving her power. Zaros was in control of the ritual. Who is to say he didn't siphon most of the power for himself anyways?

It was Zaros idea to help the Mahjarrat in the first place, and it was his idea to invoke the Inviculum Juris, and it was his idea to bind that promise to the juris. He was in control the entire time. If Zaros really didn't want to share, he could have simply killed Zamorak and performed the ritual with Azzanandra and whoever didn't feel like dying. Obviously if Zaros cared enough about what the Mahjarrat were going to think of him for killing Zamorak, he wasn't about to kill all of them.

That quote came from Hazeel, whom was a high ranking Zamorakian. I don't believe he was speaking on behalf of the Zarosians. You think Hazeel, or any of the Zamorkian Mahjarrat, had a conversation with Zaros and gossiped about Zamorak's son?

Azzanandra was stuck in the pyramid until the player frees him.
Akthanakos was imprisoned by Enakhra before the start of the god wars, and remained until the player freed him.
Wahiseitel's first meeting with Zaros after his return was during Children of Mah.

Akthanakos couldn't have known, and Wahiseitel couldn't have told Zaros due to how little contact they've had. Azzanandra might have known about Khazard due to Palkeera still being alive before Azzy being sealed, but even that is a huge stretch as Khazard would have been an infant when he last saw him...and it's unknown if Azzanandra ever had direct contact with Khazard up until the 18th ritual. Zaros knowing about Khazard's identity is a huge stretch.

29-Nov-2016 08:29:34 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2016 08:46:32 by Prime Axiom

Derack
Jul Member 2013

Derack

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In the end, all of it happend because; Plot stuff reasons.

Same for why Zaros wanted to demonstrate it first on Khazard.

Imagine if he used another Mahjarrat, and after Zamorak tells Khazard the truth.


Zamorak: Palkeera never told you who your father is?
Khazard: I think, i know enough, he died a long time ago.
Zamorak: No Khazard, i am your father!
Khazard: Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!
Zamorak: Search your feelings, you know it's to be true.
"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

29-Nov-2016 12:30:17 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2016 12:31:17 by Derack

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Zaros couldn't drain it all for himself. If he could, he would have almost definitely just drained Mah without a whisper to anyone else. The point of draining the Mahjarrat isn't to gain their power, but so he can get all of Mah's power once they've taken it.

That is why he needs all the mahjarrat here. The more of them performing the ritual, the more energy they can siphon.

And while we have no confirmation, the idea of becoming an Elder God is a possibility. Even if it's a slim one, it shouldn't be written off.

Perhaps he believes he can siphon enough of her power for him to ascend.

And it also begs the question why he had to lie to them. Mah didn't care for them and he didn't care for her. What was he hiding?

Prime Axiom said :
It was Zaros idea to help the Mahjarrat in the first place, and it was his idea to invoke the Inviculum Juris, and it was his idea to bind that promise to the juris. He was in control the entire time.

Precisely. This was planned out.

Prime Axiom said :
If Zaros really didn't want to share, he could have simply killed Zamorak and performed the ritual with Azzanandra and whoever didn't feel like dying.

And then either drain them or needlessly give up over half the potential power because he either couldn't drain due to a lack of participation or gave it away.

Prime Axiom said :
Obviously if Zaros cared enough about what the Mahjarrat were going to think of him for killing Zamorak, he wasn't about to kill all of them.

He isn't worried about their feelings. He's worried about losing control and not having the support needed to fully drain Mah.

As for Khazard, you don't need to be Zamorakian to put two and two together. They all knew Zamorak. Azzanadra worked with him as a fellow leader of the empire. And there's questions like "How does Khazard even exist?" Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

29-Nov-2016 20:09:37

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Prime Axiom said :
So you're saying Zaros targeted Khazard because he wanted Zamorak to lash out at him?
There's no evidence of this. This is purely logical conjecture. Fixed that for you.

Prime Axiom said :
Singling out Khazard would be highly improbable. Khazard was born towards the end of the godwars, during the 3rd age. Zaros was removed at the end of the 2nd age. None of the Zarosian Mahjarrat knew of Khazard's identity, and it seems like this was a secret to even the Zamorakian Mahjarrat. Khazard himself didn't even know. Consider that Zaros selecting Khazard led directly to Zaros' suggestion of the demonic pact, and then to Zamorak being under Zaros' thumb. Do you seriously think that's just a happy coincidence?

Zaros targeted Khazard to provoke Zamorak. It's the only logical conclusion. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

30-Nov-2016 04:32:52 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2016 04:39:16 by Raleirosen

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Raleirosen said :
Zaros targeted Khazard to provoke Zamorak. It's the only logical conclusion.

Well that's not true. Another logical conclusion is this:

Zaros was demonstrating that the ritual would transfer the power to the Mahjarrat (choosing the Mahjarrat closest to him).

Zamorak intervened, and Zaros overpowers him intending to kill.

Zamorak (accepting his death) distributes the power he gained from stabbing Zaros way back when amongst the Mahjarrat (as Zamorak says he is).

In response, Zaros stops his attack in order to avoid inspiring opposition against him and suggests Viniculum Juris so as to not waste any more time (which would risk his own existence).

You know, the events as we saw them rather than inventing some conspiracy that barely makes sense (especially given Zaros's pretty much states he planned for Zammy to show up).

Let's pretend Zaros actually intended to drain the Mahjarrat after the ritual, where would that have left him? Assuming he succeeded, he'd have eliminated one of his own loyal followers (Wahisietal and Akthanakos were not invited to his return for what should now be quite obvious reasons), earned even further animosity from Zamorak, and would have confirmed to the worldguardian every last negative thing about him that he's been trying to convince us he's changed.

And that's assuming he succeeds. Do we honestly think that the Mahjarrat would just sit there and let him drain them once they've charged themselves up on Mah's energy? Do we really think that Zaros would take the risk of Zamorak or Seren showing up in the middle of him draining the Mahjarrat while the player character is there for them to say 'See, I told you so!' to?

The crux of this 'theory' revolves around the idea that Zaros would willingly knock over every game piece he's been carefully setting up since the communion portal was established during The Temple at Senntisten. It makes zero sense.

30-Nov-2016 17:28:53

Hguoh

Hguoh

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And, because people seem convinced that Zaros planned the Viniculum Juris from the begining:

Zamorak: STOP! MY SON!
*Zamorak fires a spell at Zaros; Zaros fires a spell at Zamorak. The spells meet mid-air.*
Zamorak: I will end your tyranny once and for all!
Zaros: You will pay for your ignorance with your life!
*Zamorak leans forward; the spell overpowers him.*
Zamorak: Arghhhh!
*Zamorak kneels to the ground, with his left hand on the floor. Zaros keeps firing his spell.*
Zaros: Even now it is a shame to end your life.
Zamorak: I never asked for this burden.
Zamorak: Everything I did, I did for the mahjarrat.
*Zamorak rises and fires a spell with his left hand.*
Zamorak: If I am to die, the power YOU gave me will become theirs!
*Each mahjarrat is enveloped in a green aura.*
Zaros: What? No...
*Zaros stops firing his spell. Screen fades to black and then returns, briefly spotlighting you. Screen fades to black and then returns, showing normal view.*

Certainly seems like he fully intended to kill Zamorak to me, and it was only the unexpected empowering of the Mahjarrat that changed his mind. Not premeditated in the least.

30-Nov-2016 17:35:59 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2016 17:47:54 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Kemtros said :
Do you have the exact quote? When did either of them outright say "If you work against the contract, that is a violation of your end of the bargain"? The idea is that Zamorak has to perform a single action. Now, if Zaros tried to make that be multiple actions, I could see that being a violation, but we were talking about Zaros requesting an impossible action being a violation of the contract, but whether or not the action is possible is still not an issue. Zaros only agreed to the idea that Zamorak must perform an action for him. There was nothing about that action being impossible, so again, if Zaros requests something that Zamorak cannot do, then Zamorak fails. It only means that he failed to uphold the end of the contract. Zaros certainly would have rigged the contract and doom Zamorak to failure, but it still would not be a violation of that contract.

A couple exact quotes coming up:

Zamorak: ... You know what happens if you break this vow, Zaros. Viniculum Juris is not forgiving.
Zaros: Yes...I will be undone.
Zamorak: Then it is no longer a matter of trust. Keep your word, or cease to exist.

Zamorak: He is bound to his word by Viniculum Juris, Khazard. Either he keeps his promise or he will be destroyed, both outcomes are victories.

Zamorak's wording certainly appears to favor Kemtros's understanding of the matter.

30-Nov-2016 17:46:54

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
Zaros was demonstrating that the ritual would transfer the power to the Mahjarrat (choosing the Mahjarrat closest to him).

You mean Akthanakos? The one that was dying, needed the ritual more, was Zarosian and could be more trusted with? Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

30-Nov-2016 19:35:51

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