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SPOILERS - ZAROS' PLAN

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Hguoh

Hguoh

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Also wanted to say. Let's assume that Zaros did pick Khazard with the knowledge that he was Zamorak's son in order to get a reaction out of him. Why is the assumption then that he must have been planning the Vinculum Juris from the very outset?

Given Zamorak has already proven he can surprise Zaros, giving Zaros credit for planning everything that transpired really undermines Zamorak as a character and really undermines the idea of even trying to oppose Zaros.

Here's my thoughts on the matter: in a worst case scenario, Zaros was banking on Zamorak reacting so that Zaros could kill him due to Zamorak being an unpredictable and uncontrollable risk factor in his plans. Zamorak's willingness to sacrifice himself to empower the Mahjarrat put a kink in said plan as killing him would only make Zammy a martyr and inspire even greater opposition to Zaros. Hence the suggestion of Vinculum Juris in order to limit the risk factor of Zamorak at no real personal cost.

Seriously for people who seem to not want to believe Zaros or potentially oppose him, you are putting a lot of effort into making it seem like we really can't hope to ever do anything but go along for the ride as Zaros does his thing.

02-Dec-2016 01:08:48

Raleirosen

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Hguoh said :
Let's see, what other reasons could he have had? Well, there's the obvious bit about choosing to empower someone who would usually be considered an enemy as choosing an ally or neutral party proves very little compared to that. And Zaros just didn't have the foresight to anticipate Zam's possible reactions? Makes no sense at all.
Hguoh said :
There's also the bit where Khazard was literally the furthest one of Zammy's faction from Zamorak, making it more likely that Zaros could finish his demonstration before Zamorak could stop him (you know, to avoid the whole 'mortal combat' scenario that resulted). Laughable. Was that the straw that was closest to you, or did you pick the one furthest away to avoid a mortal combat scenario?

Hguoh said :
Zaros literally gloats that Zamorak is afraid of him and Zamorak doesn't deny it I don't see how that's relevant. And either way it could be interpreted as Zaros making a simple observation.
Hguoh said :
This would also depend on Zaros somehow knowing that that Khazard was Zammy's son. When you consider that Azzy, Akthanakos, Nex, and Char were imprisoned prior to Khazard's birth and Wahisietel doesn't hide the fact that he's been excluded from Zaros's inner circle, your entire conspiracy revolves around Zaros somehow figuring out that Khazard is Zamorak's son when literally none of his sources of information could have realistically known that. For starters, Zaros' inner circle almost certainly isn't his only (or even primary) source of information. Second, as others have pointed out, it doesn't take a deductive genius to take a guess at who Khazard's father might be. Third, it doesn't even matter how he found out. The fact is that it makes more sense for Zaros to have known (or at the very least, suspected) than for him to have been completely ignorant. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2016 01:11:15 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 01:49:00 by Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Hguoh said :
Oh yes, the god who openly gloated to Zamorak in the threshold of Zammy's mind I'll stop you there: do you really consider Zamorak's memory to be faultless as well?
Hguoh said :
Yeah, oh so convincing that he'd waste time with theatrics when his own survival is in danger. The theatrics were part of the plan to resolve the entire situation... so yes, he would "waste" time with them.
Hguoh said :
Are you truly that sure Mah didn't want to die when even Seren, who has sworn to oppose everything Zaros does, says otherwise? Perhaps not; we'll never know Mah's actual intentions. But Zaros' wording was weasel-y enough to immediately set up some red flags, at least for me.

I figured he was saying that to assuage any concerns over killing Mah, but realistically how many of the Mahjarrat would care? So either it was a comment for our benefit (and possibly the tiny minority of Mahjarrat), or he was being slightly genuine for once. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2016 01:21:59 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 01:47:54 by Raleirosen

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Hguoh said :
Given Zamorak has already proven he can surprise Zaros, giving Zaros credit for planning everything that transpired really undermines Zamorak as a character and really undermines the idea of even trying to oppose Zaros. I do agree with all of that; I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop so we can finally catch Zaros in the act, so to speak. For now I'm just pointing out what I think is the most likely explanation for what happened, regardless of storytelling merit.
Hguoh said :
Here's my thoughts on the matter: in a worst case scenario, Zaros was banking on Zamorak reacting so that Zaros could kill him due to Zamorak being an unpredictable and uncontrollable risk factor in his plans. Zamorak's willingness to sacrifice himself to empower the Mahjarrat put a kink in said plan as killing him would only make Zammy a martyr and inspire even greater opposition to Zaros. Hence the suggestion of Vinculum Juris in order to limit the risk factor of Zamorak at no real personal cost. This is possible but it rests on the assumption that Zaros planned to kill Zamorak from the outset, which is slightly ridiculous in my opinion. It makes more sense for Zaros to go into this wanting to subdue Zamorak (probably in preparation for Endgame), in which case everything falls into place.
Hguoh said :
Extending/instigating a fight with Zamorak does not do this. And as we've heard from the Mods repeatedly, one of if not the most pertinent thing to Zaros is ensuring his own survival. That is a good point, but if everything was indeed planned, it would've been a relatively safe position for Zaros: he would be braced for whatever Zam threw at him, and Zam would be at a disadvantage due to being provoked into reckless action. And given Zaros' overdeveloped sense of self-preservation, it makes even less sense for him to heedlessly select Khazard. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2016 01:28:00 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 01:45:26 by Raleirosen

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Zaros always has a plan. This much has been made clear. But he's not all knowing, and his plans aren't always fool proof. Not to mention he can only make guesses. For example, I doubt Zaros actually expected Zamorak to attack him. I think he did plan for Zamorak to object, but be backed against a corner where he has to find a way to ensure Zaros keeps his word or watch his friends and family die--along with himself. But I don't think Zaros expected him to attack as he likely thought Zamorak was too afraid to do so. I also think he would have assumed Zamorak to be more level headed rather than have such a bleeding heart and both lash out at Zaros and try to sacrifice himself. But, given his talent, I'm sure Zaros is able to adapt to situations he hadn't suspected and will account for multiple possibilities based on his information.

As for Zamorak's memory, I would think it's pretty accurate. We know it isn't tampered with, it took place during Zamorak's ascension--arguably the most memorable moment of his life--and since he is a God, his memory would be pretty strong. The parts that happened in his mind in particular, I think would be the most accuate.

Hguoh said :
And aiding a Zarosian would have proven what exactly? Helping the people on your side doesn't exactly fill the people against you with the greatest confidence about your intentions.

As I also mentioned, Khazard happens to not only be a Zamorakian Mahjarrat, but also the furthest from Zamorak at the time (more likely for the demo to not get interrupted).

It doesn't "prove" anything. It just adds credibility. And the distance between Khazard and Zamorak is irrelevant given how long the ritual takes. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Dec-2016 04:03:38 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 04:05:48 by Hazeel

Kemtros
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Kemtros

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I'm just going to go with Khazard being Zamorakian. While it does raise a good point that Akthanakos was there, that wouldn't convinced Zamorak. Zaros could go "Here, I'll help the Mahjarrat" and then rejuvenated Akthanakos, and Zamorak could respond "Oh, of course you help one of your lapdogs first." Choosing Akthanakos would be so easy to dismiss as simple favoritism. Restoring Khazard was an attempt to endear Zamorak to his plan quickly by choosing one of Zamorak's own followers. He just made the horrible mistake of choosing Khazard. I'm not sure if he knew that Khazard was Zamorak's son, though that could depend on how many may have known that Zamorak and Palkeera had a relationship.

Zaros' primary concern throughout the quest was ensuring Mah's death. The Viniculum Juris was more like a stalling tactic, and everything else, he was improvising.

02-Dec-2016 05:34:13

Raleirosen

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Hazeel said :
As for Zamorak's memory, I would think it's pretty accurate. We know it isn't tampered with, it took place during Zamorak's ascension--arguably the most memorable moment of his life--and since he is a God, his memory would be pretty strong. The parts that happened in his mind in particular, I think would be the most accuate.
I'm operating on the assumption that Mahjarrat memories function more or less the same as their human counterparts, minus the nifty ability to be divined from specific locations. And as far as human memories go, they are constantly being recalled, rewritten, and forgotten, i.e. almost completely useless. I also don't think ascension affects memory in any way, since there doesn't seem to be any evidence for that.

Kharshai's guarantee of authenticity almost certainly extended only to external tampering; as I said, internal tampering of memories happens 24/7. And no, the fact that it was "the most memorable moment of his life" (a flashbulb memory) makes no difference when it comes to the reliability of recall. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2016 06:14:47 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 06:21:21 by Raleirosen

Hazeel

Hazeel

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I believe it was stated somewhere that Gods gain superior mental ability after they ascend--both emotionally and logically--so I would think a Gods memory would be strong. Of course, this begs the question of whether this would extend to their mortal memories as well. Then again, the Mahjarrat are divine beings and Kharshai felt like physically reviewing his own memory would be solid proof of what really happened. Because Mahjarrat memories are made from magic and not hearsay, they may be more factual when actually presented. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Dec-2016 08:40:31

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Hazeel said :
I believe it was stated somewhere that Gods gain superior mental ability after they ascend--both emotionally and logically I think there's some pretty strong evidence to the contrary... insert your own Armadyl joke here.
Hazeel said :
Of course, this begs the question of whether this would extend to their mortal memories as well. Then again, the Mahjarrat are divine beings and Kharshai felt like physically reviewing his own memory would be solid proof of what really happened. Because Mahjarrat memories are made from magic and not hearsay, they may be more factual when actually presented. Perfectly possible, but we don't have any solid comparison yet. Until it's confirmed or suggested that Mahjarrat have excellent or near-perfect recall I think it's safer to assume that at the very least their memories shouldn't be taken at face value. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2016 15:00:30 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2016 15:01:24 by Raleirosen

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