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Seren: Hate or Redeem?

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Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Angof Cywir said :
Cthris said :
Angof Cywir said :
They would have all been extinct without her rituals. There was NO other way. The end. The planet would have been torn asunder were it not for Seren's rituals to quell Mah.


Like I said, they wouldn't be at risk if Seren moved the Dreams of Mah to a different planet. It doesn't matter if Mah ripped apart the planet because they didn't even have to be there.

And again, she could have given up part of the divine energy that is a part of her to quell Mah.


She doesn't have enough power to transport all those Mahjarrat. Not even Zaros could do that. That is why Zaros had to kill a God to get those few demons on Gielinor. Why I don't why Seren sacrificed herself to quell Mah is beyond me. I guess she assumed it would have been pointless, seeing how sacrificing her other children would only quell her for a while.

No Zaros had the power to transport the demons. He actually did teleport the first legion of demons he used to kill Loarnab. The number of demons he teleported was probably close to the number of mahjarrat Seren would need to teleport, and she wouldn't even need to teleport them as far as gielinor. He chose not to teleport the rest because he would loose power and he's selfish like that. (Also a few demons??? Try 12 thousand or so...)

We know it was perfectly within their power to do so because Icthlarin and Amascut did teleport all the mahjarrat to Gielinor.

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OR more likely she's selfish and wants everyone else to make sacrifices

19-Dec-2016 07:09:55 - Last edited on 19-Dec-2016 07:12:42 by Cthris

SwedishPagns

SwedishPagns

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Ancient Drew said :
SwedishPagns said :
Sepulchre said :
There's no real reason to hate her at this point in time, unless you're a huge Mahjarrat sympathetic, in which case you may still hate her for driving them to near extinction. On the other hand the competition that takes place over not wanting to be the sacrifice DID cause the Mahjarrat race to become stronger as a whole.
So that's a plus.


That's exactly why I hate her.

And the race of Mahjarrat is stronger "thanks" to the Rituals but now their numbers are so low, they'll never recover with just one female.

I'd rather have the Mahjarrats numerous again.
Nope, you hate her because she decided to go against Zaros. Well so did Zamorak and Sliske, and they both tried to kill him, something Seren wouldn't do.


I don't give Zamorak **** anymore, not after I found out about how much he cares for his own people and how he wanted to make the Mahjarrats numerous again.

I'm not as blindly Zarosian as I once was.

Difference between them is that Zamorak cares for his own people (that's a natural instinct), while Seren is an extremist who thinks that getting what she wants-- what she wants is dictated by emotions not reason--justifies any means, including driving an entire race to extinction.
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19-Dec-2016 23:03:06

Pupppy

Pupppy

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Truth is that Seren never really drove the mahjarrat race to extinction, as Zamorak loves to boast about, or some people that repeat him like his pet parrots.

She created both the Rituals of Rejuvination (sacrifice) and Enervation (birth!) for the mahjarrat race - together, they'd sustain their race in a constant number. While the sacrifices made them fight among themselves when the time came, the births made the mahjarrat create new binds between themselves, which the original firstborns would never of held.

Not to mention the fact that Mah would have destroyed the whole planet of Freneskae - and the mahjarrat race along with it - if the rituals were never created. Or that the rituals really did serve their idolized mother Mah instead of Seren, as zammy claimed.

Stop giving Seren bullcrap. What made the mahjarrat race dwindle was their decision to leave their planet Freneskae, for war. Not sure, but I think it was said that there were a thousand (or was it a hundred?) mahjarrat by the time they left. They lost the majority of their numbers to Tumeken's explosion - due to their own decision to betray Iccy for the higher bidder.

And then Zaros came up with the idea that they should sacrifice one of their own in order for their race to keep alive in Gielinor. I assume it is likely that they would just have returned to Freneskae if they saw no other way around their draining, and there their numbers would of kept constant once again.


And oh yeah, Seren is selfish and would never sacrifice herself to save others if she could. She must have made a simple mistake when fracturing herself into million crystal pieces by the end of the third age.

19-Dec-2016 23:35:54 - Last edited on 19-Dec-2016 23:50:20 by Pupppy

SwedishPagns

SwedishPagns

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Cthris said :

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OR more likely she's selfish and wants everyone else to make sacrifices


Bet you 50 mil this is the case.
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19-Dec-2016 23:39:08

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Pupppy said :


We have already discussed much more viable alternatives to tricking the mahjarrat into killing one another. I'll save myself the trouble of being a "parrot" and just point you to the top of the page. *Hint Freneskae isn't the only planet out there*

You are also not taking into consideration that the dreams of mah were immortal before Seren's interference. By creating the ritual stones she gave mah a way to drain their bodies. This deprived them of their immortality, and effectively crippled the race.

How would Zaros even know, at the time he suggested that they use their own ritual, that the cause of their draining was due to mah? He left before the Dreams of mah were even a thing, thus would only have the same knowledge as the mahjarrat. As far as we know he only saw that they would die off faster than they could breed so he suggested a way to keep them alive. A very brutal and horrible way for sure, but that doesn't mean what Seren did isn't brutal and horrible too.


Pupppy said :

And oh yeah, Seren is selfish and would never sacrifice herself to save others if she could. She must have made a simple mistake when fracturing herself into million crystal pieces by the end of the third age.


Actually, that was pretty selfish of her. For one it was not her only option. She specifically mentions that she could have told Guthix of her predicament but didn't because she didn't want guthix to think badly of her. She once again put her own need in front of the elves, not to mention she sabotaged Guthix's plan by still having a "presence" on the world. Her own selfishness lead her to that predicament. She wasn't sacrificing anything, she wasn't even truly doing it for the elves, they're just a means to an end. She just want everyone to love her, no matter what the cost.

20-Dec-2016 06:04:58 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 06:06:15 by Cthris

Hazeel

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Seren's actions were guided by emotion. Pure, uncontrolled, irrational emotion. She does mean well, but thinking with just emotion and not logic is just as dangerous as thinking with just logic and no emotion. She should have been honest with them, taught them to breed, and stayed with them and continued to watch over them and look for ways to help.

I'm almost postitive she could have taught them to drain Mah not just for birth, but to sustain themselves. The sacrifices were no needed. They could have simply mated and mated until Mah was nothing. Instead Seren, blinded by her emotions, chose to protect that monster. When it comes to Mah, she and Zaros are blind. Seren is blinded, seeing Mah as a loving mother and ignoring her posessiveness, cruelty, and willingness to kill her, Zaros, and all the Mahjarrat to stay alive. Zaros...he's simply blind to how much like his mother he really is.

She saw the Mahjarrat as nothing. They were her siblings and she had no love for them, despite their adoration and devotion to her. She lied to them and had them sacrifice their own lives for an abomination. Unlike Zamorak, I do think there is room for redemption and forgiveness...but what Seren did was completely wrong. There was no excuse for it. I would like to hope that Seren can one day learn the error of her ways, but she is horribly unbalanced and broken in her design. Though I don't see her as evil, she is dangerous--though, to her credit, she has become more self aware of this and does seem to be making an effort to control herself. I'm just not sure it's possible.

Seriously though...think how the Mahjarrat are feeling, especially first borns like Zamorak, Bilrach, Hazeel, etc. This was their "mother", the only one they had ever known. They loved her and killed themselves for her...only to find out she had lied to them and used her forced love to manipulate them to save their real mother who didn't love them at all and was willing to kill them for her own life.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

20-Dec-2016 06:17:01 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 07:10:43 by Hazeel

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Oh and how could I forget the Mahserrat?

Due to her interference the Mahserrat were all eradicated because they were deprived of their immortality, and due to their reluctance to murder one another, they all ended up dead. That's an entire sub-species dead at her hand (Bar Hazeel). That's genocide.

20-Dec-2016 06:19:22 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 06:19:46 by Cthris

Pupppy

Pupppy

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Cthris said :
they were deprived of their immortality


You continue to just repeat Zamorak's personal theory.


The way I understood, the Ritual Stones were only ever used to channel energies through the rituals themselves. Mah's drain of the mahjarrat is something more natural, I don't think the stones were the cause of it, they are just a catalyst to help them perform greater energy transfers.

She's an elder goddess, don't forget. Her simple dreams created life from nothing, if a dream turned around she could and would unconsciously drain them back in order to survive, in any way she found.

Not to mention the Ritual Stones were supposedly done just for mahjarrat (or else why wouldn't they just sacrifice muspah(s) instead? I'm sure one would have tried at some point). Yet, all races created, including muspah, nightmares, or even Seren and Zaros, were drained as well.

So no, Seren did not rob anyone of their immortality. Eventually Mah would drain them back (or she already did it from the start? we don't really know), and as we saw, they being on a far away planet, such as Gielinor, would not have saved them. Although it is true that Seren did not know that would happen - in fact, she knew very few things, she was still like a child who'd lived in presence of only a selfish brother and a dumb needy mother. It is not like she had the best moral examples to base on, or neither experience to make up a better plan.

And in the other meaning of immortality, they were not unkillable either. Without a way to reproduce, their numbers would slowly but surely decline, as they fought among themselves, and with other peoples and even gods. I will remind you again that most of the mahjarrat lives' loss was because of their betrayal on Tumeken.

cont.

20-Dec-2016 13:28:57 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 13:56:28 by Pupppy

Pupppy

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Now onto their own hypocrisy. In one moment, Zamorak states that they loved "Mah" for having created them, and they wanted to help her, as they did with the rituals. Now, because that was Seren, it was all invalid; he completely ignores, and denies, the fact that all those rituals were made to help Mah.

But will he please make up his mind? Does he love his creator mother and would have done what it takes to help her, or does he value his own life more and would sacrifice their mother in order to spare his own from the suffering? He kept mixing up those two ideas every time I spoke to him on the endgame quest.

And by the way, I'm beginning to see him as a racist person. At every moment he boasts, fights and would do anything for his race, even if they go against his ideologies... But then, when it is about all the demons and humans on his service, it makes no difference how many of them die. For example, I did not see him suffer when the third sister of the Twin Furies died (they are the only ones of their subspecies, aren't they?); or even worse he gladly cheered on the fact of how he drove the aviansie to apparent extinction on the quest. But sure, all is fair as long as no mahjarrat are harmed on the process.



And yes, I agree what Seren done was dumb, maybe she could have come up with a better plan, but she was emotional and naive. She didn't know much at that point. If Zaros was around he could of helped her make a better plan (although I suspect it would of been the same one he had recently, to sacrifice Mah in order to "save" the mahjarrat and get himself a great load of power)


And on your response on how selfish seren still was on end of the third age, I'll spare you and just take what you said as an unfunny joke...



Oh and by the way don't expect me keep replying at this thread. I know how these forums go at discussions about gods - arguments are ignored/repeated and never end. I've already said what I had to say ;)

20-Dec-2016 13:29:07 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 13:50:08 by Pupppy

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Pupppy said :
Cthris said :
they were deprived of their immortality


You continue to just repeat Zamorak's personal theory.

The way I understood, the Ritual Stones were only ever used to channel energies through the rituals themselves. Mah's drain of the mahjarrat is something more natural, I don't think the stones were the cause of it, they are just a catalyst to help them perform greater energy transfers.

If there were no stone, she'd still find a way to drain them. She's an elder goddess, don't forget. Her simple dreams created life from nothing, if a dream turned around she could and would unconsciously drain them back in order to survive.

So no, Seren did not rob anyone of their immortality.


Seren's second memory crystal from Fotg suggests that the weren't born with the drain, and it was due to her own interference that allowed Mah to drain them. So I'm pretty confident your understanding is wrong.

Also I doubt Mah could have innovated the idea for the ritual stones themselves. Seren had to make the first one, and I doubt Mah even has the capacity for inventing such a thing, if she really did make the one in Children of Mah, which I'm pretty sure was actually created by Zaros to set up his contingencies and get the mahjarrats loyalty, she would have been just copying Seren, which means without Seren she never would have been able too.

She also never drained them back until Seren interfered. This was made clear in the third memory crystal. By the way, Seren makes it pretty clear in the memory she didn't care about the mahjarrat. She really didn't want to teach them to give birth because it would harm her precious mother, but she had too for sustainability reasons.

So yeah, I think that covers all of your objections for why she couldn't have moved them to a new planet.

20-Dec-2016 13:50:44

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