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Eren Lapucet

Eren Lapucet

Posts: 1,658 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Pretty much agreed with everything said.

I will go on a tangent here and say I am disappointed with the Seren vs Agility vs RoP poll. There were way too many problems with that poll.

1) First off all, it was rigged from the start when the Seren quest included "Seren Prayers and Magics" as rewards, and showed no rewards for RoP. Obviously the average non-lore person would vote for the Seren quest. If you want a fair, unbiased poll, either both of them must show rewards, or none. And you might have wanted to have mentioned that RoP (probably) gets an agility course too.

2) Players vote for what's freshest in their minds. Right now we have a huge problem where we have age-old unfinished storylines, very few quests, and in general way too many "Major plotline quests". Adding a major Seren/Elf content a year after PE/Elf City is not only making un-diverse content, but it's also adding to the fire (admittedly RoP isn't much better, but it's still better). And if you don't believe me that players don't understand the problem of diversity, 2 of the top 4 runelabs ideas atm are elf related, and another is a poh room suggestion.

3) To put it frankly, RoP had months (maybe years) of thought put into it. Seren quest came out of nowhere. if RoP won, therefore, it probably would have been a much more polished quest. After all, there seems to be a bad trend that polled quests are a bit rushed.

4) Lastly, a lot of lore-people voted Seren quest only because they saw that RoP wasn't going to win. This is a fundamental problem with Runelabs, but I suppose there's nothing you can do about that. I'm too Unaligned to have a forum signature.

19-Apr-2015 18:19:11

Eren Lapucet

Eren Lapucet

Posts: 1,658 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tangent to my tangent [aka back on topic]: I've noticed that in this thread, and in other places, there is a high probability that someone will vote for a quest that just came out as "their best quest ever", or "top ten". And the quality doesn't seem to matter, since all sorts of "bad" and "good but not the best" quests fit this trend, like MPD and DaT. I guess this is just an extension of the "people like what's freshest in their minds" problem I mentioned in #2 above. You really need to wait a few weeks or wait until a new quest(s) come out before you can say a recent quest is a favorite without bias. I'm too Unaligned to have a forum signature.

19-Apr-2015 18:22:22

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I've been reflecting on the topic at hand recently; the Seren quest, and what Rondstat wrote on the previous page. My conclusion, confirmed by reading a completely unrelated article about how Dutch newspapers and journalists treat news (and how news 'consumers' insatiably desire (pseudo-)news), is that his analysis was spot-on. Interestingly, my digestion analogy was also striking, in that it's been used for similar situations repeatedly.

The comments on the fanservice provided by recent quests were largely correct, unfortunately. The majority of the people doing quests nowadays do not seek what defines a good quest - they seek not a well-thought out story, unique and relevant characterisations or reflections on the problems that present themselves. In the worst case scenario, a quest is rated by the amount of gods appearing in it.

The article I mentioned describes how, a few decades ago, newsreaders desired to be informed within the proper context of the news, and be provided with thorough analyses. Nowadays, they seek instant gratification - people do not care what's happening in the world, they want a constant supply of meaningless facts and figures, to the point that journalists are forced to create equally meaningless, 'fake' news to satisfy their readers' needs.

This is not a recent development though. In his work The American Newspaper (1911!), journalist Will Irwin described news as " both an intellectual craving and a commercial need to the modern world. " He also wrote: " In popular psychology, it has come to be a crying primal want of the mind, like hunger of the body. " Does that seem familiar?

In 2010, Swiss author Rolph Dobelli published an essay called Avoid News , in which he unsurprisingly attempted to convince his readers not to watch/read/listen to the news anymore. Now, the merit of that aside, there is one particular comparison he makes that strikingly illustrates the point I'm trying to make: Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

10-May-2015 12:16:17

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Original message details are unavailable.
In the past few decades, the fortunate among us have recognized the hazards of living with an overabundance of food (obesity, diabetes) and have started to shift our diets. But most of us do not yet understand that news is to the mind what sugar is to the body. News is easy to digest. The media feeds us small bites of trivial matter, tidbits that don’t really concern our lives and don*t require thinking. That’s why we experience almost no saturation. Unlike reading books and long, deep magazine articles (which requires thinking), we can swallow limitless quantities of news flashes, like bright-colored candies for the mind.

And this is exactly what's going on with the so-called questers that adhere to this trend. They aren't enjoying situations like the gathering of Mahjarrat and GWD generals in the Empyrean Citadel (utterly purposeless for the story), even though they think they do. They seek instant satisfaction, gratification and fulfillment - but they are getting nothing. They merely become high on sugar - these recent quests (it should be obvious that there are exceptions of course, most prominently and recently Dimension of Disaster, but there are others as well - therefore I should probably have specified that I'm referring to most of the quests in the Sixth Age storylines... oh well) do not satisfy, they grant a brief and momentary surge of energy.

And the worst part is that the process is a vicious circle. What happens when you attempt to sate your hunger by ingesting food with barely any nutritional value? Exactly: you remain hungry. It's not particularly surprising, then, that these people, trapped by their own unsatisfiable desires, keep demanding more of these quests, even though they cannot and will not quench their thirst for quests.

Just like a healthy and balanced diet is needed to sustain a body, a varied and balanced supply of quests is needed. Preferably without the sugar-bombs that people are ignorantly asking for. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

10-May-2015 12:28:13

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
People should rehabilitate. Make a new account and play through some jewels such as the Dorgeshuun series, the Myreque series or the Elemental Workshop series, just to name some good quest content, to re-experience what a proper quest is like. To play quests that are multidimensional and provide perspective.

The recent quests tend to confirm what we already knew, an inherent effect of the fanservice, whereas a really good quest (or book, film, article, etc.) provides us with new insights into the world we live in.

On the topic of the Seren quest, it pains me to see how many people are asking for the return of the crystal goddess. Rondstat called it sacrilege and a trivialisation of her character and history; I couldn't agree more. The character of Seren has been well-established. Her characterisation involves tough decisions and an arduous life of having to bear their consequences, culminating in the ultimate sacrifice of her own body and psyche as well as Prifddinas.

To simply return her just so people can have a spoonful of sugar by seeing her interact with Zaros, or so people can talk to her and ask about what she thinks of Saradomin's actions on Naragun, or Zamorak's on RuneScape, or how Apmeken's hair looks nowadays, would not only be an utter waste of her character and a sign of great disrespect to the people who worked hard to establish her personality and history, but also pointless, since it's not going to benefit anyone. As stated earlier, it's not going to give anyone any satisfaction for more than two minutes.

What the quest should focus on, is Seren's fractured mind, her relationship with the elves and how her current state that resulted from her momentous sacrifice has affected her. The quest would focus on the psychology of Seren and of the elves, on their culture, and their evolution as a race without their beloved goddess. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

10-May-2015 12:42:00 - Last edited on 10-May-2015 14:29:10 by Lord Drakan

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

Posts: 7,043 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
We need more bottle quests, so much is fact. Not only to increase the disappointingly low amount of quest we are getting, but also to allow people to properly enjoy them. Many will disagree with me, but then they are the ones high on the quasi momentous and pseudo-epic (well, let's use that term again) 'sugar bomb quests'. As I said earlier, these quests are only ingested and almost immediately excreted, leaving people hungry for more. Insatiably so. And it's depressing to see how so many have succumbed to this...

Like any form of entertainment, one must have the ability to properly digest a quest during and after the playthrough. Ruminate too, preferably (one can tell I like this analogy too much, hehe).

This is my final plea. Stop feeding us with the instant gratification candy. Would you feed your child with only chocolate, wine gums and liquorice? A significant proportion if not the vast majority of the questing and lore community is, almost morbidly, obese. Please, preserve the players' story-related health and preserve the integrity of your content. The Sixth Age truly has great potential, but it's not being executed correctly. It isn't too late, however. It can be saved - but you must act now. No more MPD's or returns of Seren - cold turkey. Lest that vicious cycle finally explodes, at which point there is no way back.

" Lucien Jagex, ignore this those players' petty squabbling. Heed my wisdom - it must be one of the Zarosian scum quests of high standard."

(guh, I made another textwall...) Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

10-May-2015 12:56:41

Autumn Elite

Autumn Elite

Posts: 3,487 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm going to write a response for the last two pages to add an alternative perspective and highlight some other issues.

Firstly Rondstat, I believe you are wrong. Mod Ollie has not been given the young gods and Stone of Jas storyline. He was given one quest and because of polls, got to work on Dishonour amongst Thieves and is working on Seren quest. He could have just as easily been working on spell crafting and agility updates. I'm glad the polls turned out the way they did.

Mod Stu developed Death of Chivalry and Mod Raven has been heavily involved in the design of Rite of Passage. Sections will go through approval and feedback. It isn't like Mod Ollie is running rampant adding whatever he wants.

I also completely disagree with your sequel and "right requirements" argument.

Lets tackle "right requirements" first. Death of Chivalry is a novice level sixth age quest that in the timeline takes place after The World Wakes. Now I'm a mid level player without the requirements to do The World Wakes. However I was completely able to understand and enjoy Death of Chivalry. Guthix is dead, the gods have returned and Saradomin needs our help. Got it? Then you are good to go.

There is absolutely nothing in the quest that requires The World Wakes. Now someone may reply about how they gained extremely deep understanding of Saradomin in that quest and as such Death of Chivalry plays totally differently. However unless that is the case, I see no reason to demand its requirement.

Death of Chivalry was brilliant as it was. Adding The World Wakes as a requirement would do nothing except push it to be a grandmaster unnecessarily, make it look extremely short and undramatic in comparision and restrict all new storylines behind big barriers.

11-May-2015 19:09:33

Autumn Elite

Autumn Elite

Posts: 3,487 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I find it useful to see it similar to Avatar: the last airbender and the legend of korra. Same universe, different time period. Both can be enjoyed on their own. Sure watching the last airbender gives additional content and allows you to recognise the statue in 1X03 but it isn't necessary. Legend of Korra is perfectly viewable on its own and there is no need to give everyone wanting to watch it a 61 episode other show barrier.

This is the fifth and sixth age. Of course you should do fifth age quests, they are enjoyable in their own right. However they could not be a barrier to new content. Having fifth age as a requirement would just push the tier to grandmaster which would devalue that rank and result in less quests. Is that what you want?

Now to your sequel argument. This is just wrong. Missing Presumed Death was never intended or marketed as a sequel. It was always discussed as the introduction and set up of the sixth age. Just because something has some of the same characters and takes place after something does not make it a sequel. I'm going to continue with the television comparisons as it is useful and hopefully mainstream enough to illustrate points.

Take Doctor Who and the travels of the 10th and 11th doctors. The 11th doctors era takes place after the 10th, features some of the same characters and items and sometimes similar themes pop up. Is it a sequel? No. Sequels suggest a continuation of the same story. There is a continuation of the same characters and some themes crop up again but that is to be expected in a 50 year old show. But it is a different story.

Taking this into a runescape context. Goblin diplomacy and the lost tribe. Now the lost tribe occurred after goblin diplomacy and contains some of the same characters. Is it a sequel? No.

I'd also like to point out size. On runelabs, Ritual of the Mahjarret is XXL. Expecting a sequel from a much smaller quest is wrong.

11-May-2015 20:33:29 - Last edited on 12-May-2015 12:09:58 by Autumn Elite

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