RuneScape Forum Archive | Diversity failures in RS3/OSRS

God Drakan

Posts: 686 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mel 624 said :
Claiming the use of Gypsy as a legal term and by a select number of Romani doesn't disprove that it's a slur. Minorities can and have reclaimed slurs directed at themselves as seen with black people and LGBT people. However, their history as slurs often means that only certain people are comfortable using the term for themselves or that it's only acceptable to use in specific ways and that to apply it to everyone without regard for how individuals feel about being described that way isn't appropriate. Styling a character after stereotypical depiction of Romani culture and calling them a Gypsy is not a case in which the term would be appropriate.

All I have is your word about that a number of Romani were upset by this and it wouldn't change the issue with the ones who aren't ok with being called that in every media depiction of their culture, so there isn't really anything left to justify claiming the change was unnecessary.

The term ''Romani'' was invented by the successor of the dictator Ceaucescu. The term was invented so that the gypsy community, which you may say has it ''Headquarters'' in Romania, may identify more easily with the rest of the citizens of Romania. Before that, the gypsies themselves used the said term as a form of identification/association with their community. When it comes to racism regarding gypsies, they have their own slurs, some sort of N like words that they use against each other. If anything, gypsies are proud to call themselves like that and not ''Romani''.
The world is vast and there are many cultures on this planet. Racism is not when people are identified with a certain culture, in fact people that love their culture are proud to be recognized by that, but when individuals are mocked based on their culture and origins. Another face of racism is when others create certain words/names/slurs for other communities, not when a community identifies itself by a certain name/word.

15-Feb-2022 23:32:13

Dec

2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Nothing you've said so far really holds up and you can't disprove the racism issue for all that you claim otherwise. The only impasse I see is a refusal to engage with the actual point of the thread, which was that Jagex wasn't consistent in addressing the issues the update was meant for and the problems with that. Instead people are stubbornly denying the existence of those problems and claiming they don't exist, which is getting in the way of actually discussing the intended topic of the thread. The people who want to actually engage with the thread in good faith are being pushed away by the likelihood of getting dogpiled and forced into a completely different conversation than what they'd want to comment for.

I'm seeing a conspicuous lack of response to the Karamja aspect of this or any acknowledgement that your claim about the Gypsy part of it was disproven even if we take what you said about some Romani being ok with it as true. The word is a slur and the history of its use makes it inappropriate to use as part of an NPC's name. The existence of people who were ok with it is completely irrelevant to this fact. How to block a forum user

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15-Feb-2022 23:44:04

God Drakan

Posts: 686 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mel 624 said :
Nothing you've said so far really holds up and you can't disprove the racism issue for all that you claim otherwise. The only impasse I see is a refusal to engage with the actual point of the thread, which was that Jagex wasn't consistent in addressing the issues the update was meant for and the problems with that. Instead people are stubbornly denying the existence of those problems and claiming they don't exist, which is getting in the way of actually discussing the intended topic of the thread. The people who want to actually engage with the thread in good faith are being pushed away by the likelihood of getting dogpiled and forced into a completely different conversation than what they'd want to comment for.

I'm seeing a conspicuous lack of response to the Karamja aspect of this or any acknowledgement that your claim about the Gypsy part of it was disproven even if we take what you said about some Romani being ok with it as true. The word is a slur and the history of its use makes it inappropriate to use as part of an NPC's name. The existence of people who were ok with it is completely irrelevant to this fact.

Perhaps you should get some history classes first. My earlier argument is based on pure historical, and even up to date, facts. The word gypsy is not racist, simple as that; the term derives in fact from ''egytpian'', since europeans believed that this nomadic community was coming from Egypt. Also, as many pointed out already, this threads point ends up being an exaggerated rant. By people ''not wanting to discuss'' the actual ''problem'' you mean people not being offended in any way by these things and claiming that they dont see any problem here. Someone from a certain community that has similarities with the NPCs in game even posted here, saying he doesnt feel offended in any way.
If you believe there are racist aspects in RS, maybe you should make a separate thread to suggest their removal.

16-Feb-2022 00:49:16

ToP BaSS

Posts: 19,464 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mel 624 said :

Claiming the use of Gypsy as a legal term and by a select number of Romani doesn't disprove that it's a slur.
Does not prove it either. But it was not the Romani that claimed Gypsy as a legal term, some Romany are 'proud to associate themselves with this term'
Slipping in that term " select number " - nicely done.

16-Feb-2022 09:10:06 - Last edited on 16-Feb-2022 09:17:59 by ToP BaSS

Stoat King

Posts: 5,075 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mel 624 said :

Claiming the use of Gypsy as a legal term and by a select number of Romani doesn't disprove that it's a slur

Well luckily, there are people we can ask about this.

On twitter: @GypsyCouncil. Working tirelessly for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers in the UK and Europe.

Better not ask them. They clearly didnt get the memo.

Looking at what appear to be the main sites in this country for the travelling community:

https://travellermovement.org.uk/
This has the following text in bold at the top of the front page:
"We are a national civil society organisation comprised of ethnic Romany Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Roma and members of the majority population working in partnership"

They dont seem too bothered by the 'slur' either.

https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/ is larded with references to the word 'gypsy'. It is being used as a synonym. There is also information about the "gypsy council annual general meeting" and a various pdf summaries of it for various years.

You say "it wouldn't change the issue with the ones who aren't ok with being called that".
Where are they? Im sure you can provide sources, you know, from the actual travelling community rather than academics. Please do.

The irony, of course, is that your position is racist in and of itself. "The lazy racism of low expectations". You wont allow them the agency to speak for themselves - or even decide what they may call themselves. You - an outsider - have taken it upon yourself to decide what THEY find offensive.

Regardless, if you are that bothered, I advise you to take up this issue with the travelling community themselves. I have given you plenty of links. You can explain to them why you are so sure that the language they are using to refer themselves is so offensive. To them.
Please keep us in the loop with any correspondence.

16-Feb-2022 12:21:05

Jan

2015

Tenebri

Posts: 39,133 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Over the past few years it does seem there are many people who say x y z is an offensive term to a b c communities, when they arent apart of that community. And that itself is an issue you cant speak for them to say its offensive. They have a voice speaking for them is offensive in its own right.

To then argue about it without a voice of that community you are trying to defend is then just you again speaking for them where you cant at all have knowledge on what can or cant be offensive.

I can understand you are wanting to help. But its causing more issues and is a distraction of real issues.

The term gypsie has been discussed before here on forums and we did have someone say they were offended that the term they use to describe themself and are proud to describe themself as gypsie was considered offensive. Ill try look for it later.

EDIT:
i found it didnt want to quote it directly incase that person didnt want to be involved, so ive left their name out and i blurred their sig (accidently left that in the screenshot) but what they wrote is valid as they are a gypsy themselves and they use that term to describe themself

so now you have a voice of someone that this can effect, and the act of removing the term in rs3, was offensive to them for removing it.
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16-Feb-2022 15:55:44 - Last edited on 16-Feb-2022 18:59:49 by Tenebri

ToP BaSS

Posts: 19,464 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Stoat King said :

The irony, of course, is that your position is racist in and of itself. "The lazy racism of low expectations". You wont allow them the agency to speak for themselves - or even decide what they may call themselves. You - an outsider - have taken it upon yourself to decide what THEY find offensive.
Well said - as is the whole post.

16-Feb-2022 17:55:16

Dec

2011

Draco Burnz

Posts: 79,296 Emerald Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

ToP BaSS said :
Stoat King said :

The irony, of course, is that your position is racist in and of itself. "The lazy racism of low expectations". You wont allow them the agency to speak for themselves - or even decide what they may call themselves. You - an outsider - have taken it upon yourself to decide what THEY find offensive.
Well said - as is the whole post.

Agreed.

Ppl shouldnt try and talk for a whole community as they have no right to.

This is all just personal opinions and nothing more.

Draco Burnz

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Defender of the logical

17-Feb-2022 03:24:06

Feb

2018

Ezle

Posts: 186 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Jagex doesn't read their own Forums, you're wasting your time.

18-Feb-2022 14:31:13

Jan