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ToP BaSS

ToP BaSS

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Indeed - This change was never anything to do with or a result of racism.
Now about those who can't help themselves from seeking and finding offence where there is none and twisting their particular interpretation of events to suite and satisfy their needs.

13-Feb-2022 02:21:45 - Last edited on 13-Feb-2022 15:39:08 by ToP BaSS

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

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Draco Burnz said :
Mel 624 said :


As I said, this isn't about dislike and to reframe what's been said as that is reductive and dismissive. If Jagex changed the names due to a racism/representation issue then it should've been applied to all versions of the game, not just RS3.


Ok and with this being said, if it wasnt due to this, then it doesnt need to be applied to osrs right?

So considering it wasnt applied to osrs, it just proves that the names changed wasnt due to racism.


Are you seriously trying to claim it has nothing to do with racism solely because it wasn't applied to OSRS to then justify your claim that it wasn't necessary? That's some pretty circular reasoning.

Jagex made those changes to address racism, not only in how the Kharidian NPCs were named but also in Karamja as well as removing a slur from another NPC's name now that people are more aware of the word's context. That's been made pretty clear.

The lack of consistent application with OSRS doesn't mean that the change was unnecessary or that it wasn't about that but rather that they weren't consistent in applying it, which undermines its effectiveness and invites people to question their sincerity and dedication to really addressing a problem they acknowledged.
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Death And Taxes: An Analysis

14-Feb-2022 07:31:19

ToP BaSS

ToP BaSS

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Mel 624 said :

Jagex made those changes to address racism


I can see no racism or racial intent in this.... The actual reason was
"name changed from 'Ali' to better reflect the diverse variety of names we see in real life"
.

"A 2009 issue of Postbag from the Hedge contained a letter where Ali Dodger explained that the popularity of the name "Ali" rose after the mansion in Pollnivneach was left to an unknown person named "Ali", leading to citizens legally changing their names in order to try and claim the inheritance"


You could easily extrapolate this idea with a story line that these characters later found out that the new owner of the mansion owed taxes to higher value than the value of mansion and so suddenly changed their names from Ali to....
Jalal, Faisal, Waseem, Rashid, Malik, Isma'il, Zeid etc. etc. Now not considered Racist and a very funny story gagline lost.

If some story gagline enticed everyone in Prifddinas to all change their names to Jones, would this be considered Racist?

14-Feb-2022 09:43:38

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

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Jagex's message was being euphemistic, pretty standard for PR reasons. The diversity issue being addressed with the name changes was a racism issue as it was addressing racist stereotypes. They opened that part of the update with an acknowledgement that they haven't done a good job representing certain minorities in their game and that the following changes were to address that.

The postbag explanation was largely a joke and in-universe explanations shouldn't be treated as equivalent to the actual decisions being made for the inclusion of game content. It's like all those silly excuses the game makes to explain why you can't use teleports or other things to effortlessly bypass some challenge like carrying specific things over long distances instead of teleporting or to explain how you can fail and retry as often as you need without consequence. It's not even a good excuse since several NPCs named Ali weren't even living in Pollnivneach.

The problem with the Ali thing was that it made a joke out of middle-eastern people all having the same name and being difficult to distinguish from eachother. That kind of stereotyping is a thing people do IRL to minorities just reducing them to one or two ethnic names and treating them as identical to eachother.

Another change made in the same update for the same reason was renaming Wandering Tribesman to Wandering Warrior and changing the examine text from 'A primitive warrior' to 'A skilled warrior'. This was to address racist stereotypes about indigenous peoples.

'Gypsy' was removed from Aris' name to distance her from the Romani stereotypes she was made from as well as acknowledge that the word is a slur. Racism towards Romani is very widespread in Europe and it's taken a long time for people to really start to notice it, particularly that they don't actually call themselves that and it's a term others labelled them with and used with derision. It's where the word 'gypped' comes from.
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15-Feb-2022 10:07:13

ToP BaSS

ToP BaSS

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If you look hard enough for offence you will no doubt find it.
The reason Universities are currently failing in certain countries because they no longer embody that for which the name is meant to represent.

Due to minority factions who have taken control of who, what, why and when subject matters will comply with a pre dictated and ever narrowing view of marginal views of acceptability a University is no longer a place for the wide variety of discussions and debates of universal diverse subjects and students have become indoctrinated into narrow overly protected wokery that fails the students.

To reinterpret Jagex's intent in the made changes into something that is, I'm afraid, imbibing into this whole wokery culture and becomes shameful debacle. Let's keep accusations of racism where it is most needed and not demean the true intent of the word.

As for the word Gypsy...which is still a legal term under English law....
A British House of Commons Committee parliamentary inquiry, as described in their report “Tackling inequalities faced by Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities” (published 2019), stated about their findings in the United Kingdom that: “We asked many members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities how they preferred to describe themselves. While some find the term “Gypsy” to be offensive, many stakeholders and witnesses were proud to associate themselves with this term and so we have decided that it is right and proper to use it, where appropriate, throughout the report.”

I know a number of settled Romani people, all are proud to call themselves Gypsy. This is particularly so more in Central and Eastern Europe where the wokery Brigade has not yet infiltrated. It only becomes unacceptable when malicious intent is intended.

15-Feb-2022 13:01:50 - Last edited on 15-Feb-2022 15:04:11 by ToP BaSS

Stoat King

Stoat King

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ToP BaSS said :
I know a number of settled Romani people, all are proud to call themselves Gypsy.

Same here. Cant comment on Central / Eastern europe.
I remember when this change was made, a number of forumers with Roma heritage were offended and upset that it was changed.
But then, who cares if they have agency about how they want to be addressed if it interferes with the shameless virtue-signalling / white-knighting that is in play here.

15-Feb-2022 15:51:32

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

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You guys are still using circular reasoning instead of actually disproving what's been said. You haven't actually disproven the racism issue for all that you act like you do. You're just being willfully blind to facts at this point.

Claiming the use of Gypsy as a legal term and by a select number of Romani doesn't disprove that it's a slur. Minorities can and have reclaimed slurs directed at themselves as seen with black people and LGBT people. However, their history as slurs often means that only certain people are comfortable using the term for themselves or that it's only acceptable to use in specific ways and that to apply it to everyone without regard for how individuals feel about being described that way isn't appropriate. Styling a character after stereotypical depiction of Romani culture and calling them a Gypsy is not a case in which the term would be appropriate.

All I have is your word about that a number of Romani were upset by this and it wouldn't change the issue with the ones who aren't ok with being called that in every media depiction of their culture, so there isn't really anything left to justify claiming the change was unnecessary.
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Death And Taxes: An Analysis

15-Feb-2022 22:54:26

Draco Burnz
Dec Member 2011

Draco Burnz

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Mel 624 said :


All I have is your word about that a number of Romani were upset by this and it wouldn't change the issue with the ones who aren't ok with being called that in every media depiction of their culture, so there isn't really anything left to justify claiming the change was unnecessary.


Yep just like all we have is your word so i guess we're at an impasse.

So lets just agree that this is just a bunch of hogwash and doesnt need to be dragged out further.
Draco Burnz
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15-Feb-2022 23:00:04

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