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Draco Burnz
Dec Member 2011

Draco Burnz

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Tenebri said :


you'll be surprised how much they read. just because they dont respond to every post doesnt mean its not read

Agreed.

Theres no rule that says if you read something that you have to respond to it.

So they could be just lurking on an alt or not posting at all.
Draco Burnz
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18-Feb-2022 22:56:08

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
All this pointless dogpiling and you guys are still didn't comment on Karamja. You guys are just cherrypicking what you feel you're best able to misrepresent and put people down on.

There's plenty of sources on Roma considering the word Gypsy a slur and the history of its use as a derogatory term towards them and their culture. You also completely ignored what I said about reclaiming slurs and how even when one is reclaimed enough that some people are comfortable using it to describe themselves doesn't mean everyone in that group is or that there's no issue with referring to a character built on ethnic stereotypes by that term.

It's like saying just because black people have reclaimed the N word for certain uses that it stopped being a slur when used in any other context.

There are a number of groups who've referred to themselves by derogatory terms directed at them to make a point, which is a world of difference from assuming everyone within that group is suddenly ok being called that. There's also that a lot of Roma have had to use the term simply due to a lot of people not knowing who they're talking about otherwise.

Citing its use on European websites and such is also flawed as there's still widespread discrimination towards them that would mitigate any efforts made to take their communities into account in how to refer to them. The racism they deal with is often still left unchallenged and awareness on the issue has only been improving relatively recently. How to block a forum user

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21-Feb-2022 19:27:07

Tenebri
Jan Member 2015

Tenebri

Posts: 39,133 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
^^ the main point people are talking about is you cant speak for other ethnicities. you cant say what they find offensive or not.
as you arent apart of it. and that is what you are trying to do. you are then also given sources and quotes and still want to speak for them, and tell them they are wrong?

what others have done is quote and cite sources. thats more credible than anything
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21-Feb-2022 20:11:30 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2022 22:22:53 by Tenebri

God Drakan

God Drakan

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Mel 624 said :
There's plenty of sources on Roma considering the word Gypsy a slur and the history of its use as a derogatory term towards them and their culture. You also completely ignored what I said about reclaiming slurs and how even when one is reclaimed enough that some people are comfortable using it to describe themselves doesn't mean everyone in that group is or that there's no issue with referring to a character built on ethnic stereotypes by that term.


The king of the gypsies released a crypto currency called ''gypsycoin''. Their own leader refers to them as gypsies, making the word itself the official name/description of that community.

21-Feb-2022 22:08:57

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tenebri said :
^^ the main point people are talking about is you cant speak for other ethnicities. you cant say what they find offensive or not.
as you arent apart of it. and that is what you are trying to do. you are then also given sources and quotes and still want to speak for them, and tell them they are wrong?

what others have done is quote and cite sources. thats more credible than anything

That may be how you see it but what I'm seeing is bad faith attempts at shutting down a discussion on representation issues. I've addressed the claims and what people have cited and why they aren't the solid irrefutable proof they're being portrayed as.

We're already rather far removed from the original point of the thread and that reasoning is hardly applicable to my claims.

As I've said before, the changes Jagex made were addressing long established harmful stereotypes. This is fact.

I'm also still not seeing any acknowledgement of the changes in Karamja.


@Drakan, I hardly think a person peddling cryptocurrency is a useful example here. This still doesn't actually refute what I said about reclaiming slurs or the appropriateness of using such a term to refer to a character based on stereotypes. How to block a forum user

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23-Feb-2022 02:37:58

Tenebri
Jan Member 2015

Tenebri

Posts: 39,133 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mel 624 said :
Tenebri said :
^^ snipp


That may be how you see it but what I'm seeing is bad faith attempts at shutting down a discussion on representation issues. .

its not shutting down the discussion not at all. its saying "x is bad" we cant discuss it this way, its not trying to shut it down entirely. thats why we have 12 pages worth of discussion

what you say you see of bad faith attempts to shut down a discussion is just not true. its trying to shut down an attempt for speaking about ethnicities when you cant have a voice on it. because that in itself is offensive.

if you truely want to help you wouldnt want to speak for others as your voice, because your voice isnt their voice.

whats next the names of people in varrock because they are english names and thats stereotype because they are all in pubs? and a city with gang problems? that is also too close to home for a fantasy game no? english names in pub in a city with gang crime?
as an english person its not offensive.... same when other ethnicities have said xy and z is not offensive why are you saying it is for me << this is the issue
youve had sources of people calling themselves gypsies and saying its offensive to remove the name. you ignore it, you ignore the voice of the people, and that is the issue right now, speaking for others when you have no right to.

like i cant as male speak for women on their issues. that would be bad right? you are doing the same here. for ethnicities. then telling them their voice doesnt matter when its quoted to you. because that is what you are doing they have literally gone
"no that is not offensive to me and i am from that ethnicity" you have gone "no you are wrong it is offensive"

they have literally said, no its not offensive and here you are still trying to say it is... what more do you want?
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23-Feb-2022 11:16:24 - Last edited on 23-Feb-2022 11:26:54 by Tenebri

God Drakan

God Drakan

Posts: 686 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mel 624 said :
@Drakan, I hardly think a person peddling cryptocurrency is a useful example here. This still doesn't actually refute what I said about reclaiming slurs or the appropriateness of using such a term to refer to a character based on stereotypes.

That person, if you actually read my post, is none other than the king of the gypsies. He is the most entitled person to name his community in any way and to speak for it. If he name his community a gypsy community, they are gypsies.

23-Feb-2022 22:00:01

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm not literally talking about everything said in the entire thread. I'm mostly referring to things like the claims that the problem doesn't exist, that there's no conversation to have and the excuses being made to claim people raising them are either making it up or shouldn't talk about it for X reason as well as the disparaging tone that came with some of them just for talking about it. A lot of the replies so far are effectively centered around denying any issue even existing rather than discussing the inconsistencies in how Jagex addressed it. That's not conductive to a good faith discussion. The page count doesn't mean much when most of it's not actually getting into the original point of discussion.

You can't claim it's offensive to raise issues with the way Jagex handled a problem they acknowledged regarding known stereotypes or that the people saying so can't say anything unless they're from one of the groups those stereotypes apply to. That's incredibly hypocritical as by that logic no one should be responding to it outside of those groups either. These are known stereotypes that Jagex themselves felt ought to be removed from their games and OP pointed out there were inconsistencies in how they did it that left the job incomplete.

English people aren't an oppressed minority and that's a slippery slope fallacy.

The only sources I've been shown were to the effect of claiming X person or site having no issue with the term meaning that none of the Romani did. I've addressed the problem with that claim.


@Drakan, that's like claiming the queen of England speaks for the entirety of the UK. You're still missing the point that some people being comfortable calling themselves gypsy doesn't mean that all of them are, nor does it mean the appropriateness of its use doesn't vary depending on context. Individual people choosing what to call themselves is a world of difference from using the term to refer to a character based on stereotypes. How to block a forum user

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24-Feb-2022 03:36:10

Tenebri
Jan Member 2015

Tenebri

Posts: 39,133 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
im sorry but you clearly arent reading what im saying, everything you have just responded with isnt really related to the points im making. or you're just not understanding it, and i dont know how to change that.

so if i am to carry this on we would just be evidently talking about 2 different things, and thats not how a discussion can work.

for one i havent once said its offensive to raise issues with jagex, infact i think its great we can raise issues with jagex thats one of the best things we can do is raise issues with them...
so im really unsure why you think i said that, unless you think you are responding to someone else earlier in the thread. because no i do not think its offensive to raise issues with jagex. issues can only be discussed or fixed if they are raised first. so you are 100% wrong there. (i just wanted to make that clear)
but yes im unsure why you started your paragraph with that when i havent once said that or implied that its offensive to raise issues. thats why you either are not reading what ive said, or you are not understanding at all.

what i have said thats offensive is to speak for other ethnicities, and take away there voice and speak for them. thats the only thing i have said that is offensive, and that is what i am discussing.

i also never said english people are oppressed either.... so again not understanding or not reading.
i mentioned england /english people as an example they dont need to be oppressed as an example. the point stands and is the same, so id rather you comment on the point im making. thats the whole point of why i wrote it. not saying they are oppressed or not

so if we are to have a discussion we need to be discussing the same thing. which we clearly are not.

so yeah it seems we are not talking about the same thing or there is a big communication error that happened somewhere.
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24-Feb-2022 09:59:16 - Last edited on 24-Feb-2022 10:12:10 by Tenebri

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