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A Dangerous Precedent

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Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Telcis said :
Rob said :
Some people just don’t know when to accept the fact that they are indeed, the wrong ones.

But like you said, Immortalized, it’s all about that post count these days.
Even IF I am wrong, that's just my interpretation of what Jagex said as their reasons.
Its certainly not the only reason they have given and you should certainly not hold an argument to a single point.

@Immoratlized, do you believe that Runescape will always be Java? Do you know what the NXT engine runs on?
I do think that Jagex looked into these concerns and has acted accordingly. Do you have proof otherwise?
I would very much like to see it. You know, you should probably quit while you are ahead. NXT is a client, not an engine. With a little bit, (or a lot depending on your choice) of effort you can write an interface with any other language. And that is all that NXT is. An interface to interperet the sever-side data, and present it in a more user freindly format. It does not change the underlying codebase of the server itself. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

03-Nov-2018 02:21:05

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Though to be honest, the Gowers should have never gone with Java to begin with, and building a scripting language on top of it only further complicates things. Java has always been a shitty, backwards-ass language, which does everything, and I mean everything, wrong. Just bad design choices all around. I get what Sun was going for when they designed it, but ugh. Just ugh.

But at the time, it was only really C and Java as options. Yeah, C++ existed in a sense, but it was really still in it's infancy. It had yet to really develop and gain much momentum. not to mention that OOP is not the end all thing it is made out to be.

So yes. They should have gone with C. Better performance and control, and if they so desired, they could have written a scripting language on top of it as well. Heck, Python's written in C, though realistically it's not good for much other than data proceesing, due to how it manages memory. To be honest, majority of things out there are written in C, or some derivative. C is just that widespread. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

03-Nov-2018 02:47:36

Immortalized
Mar Member 2006

Immortalized

Posts: 34,061 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Telcis said :
@Immoratlized, do you believe that Runescape will always be Java?
no, but rsc will

Telcis said :
Do you know what the NXT engine runs on?
NXT is a client, has absolutely nothing to do with the servers

Telcis said :
I do think that Jagex looked into these concerns and has acted accordingly. Do you have proof otherwise?
I would very much like to see it.
perhaps let jagex speak instead of fabricate completely bogus concerns Buy Zemomarks / Chromatic Partyhats safely here

03-Nov-2018 03:03:03 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2018 03:10:53 by Immortalized

Immortalized
Mar Member 2006

Immortalized

Posts: 34,061 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jack Flac said :
Though to be honest, the Gowers should have never gone with Java to begin with, and building a scripting language on top of it only further complicates things. Java has always been a shitty, backwards-ass language, which does everything, and I mean everything, wrong. Just bad design choices all around. I get what Sun was going for when they designed it, but ugh. Just ugh.

But at the time, it was only really C and Java as options. Yeah, C++ existed in a sense, but it was really still in it's infancy. It had yet to really develop and gain much momentum. not to mention that OOP is not the end all thing it is made out to be.

So yes. They should have gone with C. Better performance and control, and if they so desired, they could have written a scripting language on top of it as well. Heck, Python's written in C, though realistically it's not good for much other than data proceesing, due to how it manages memory. To be honest, majority of things out there are written in C, or some derivative. C is just that widespread.
java was widely popular back during rsc's development (1999-2001) and its primary winning trait was that it had runtimes for every major os, so you would only compile code once and deploy everywhere. it's only easy to criticize jagex in hindsight now that we have languages that compile natively to every major os.

also developing runescript is arguably advantageous for jagex since they can easily build a runescript interpreter in another language and switch their underlying engine (java) overnight without having to change their 17+ years old codebase. it also creates a secure environment where developers programming in runescript cannot even design something dangerous/insecure/fatal. e.g. you can easily kill a server in pure java but in runescript the same dangerous operations wouldn't exist.

which dismisses any hypothetical security flaws telcis mentioned (hence 17+ years without issues) Buy Zemomarks / Chromatic Partyhats safely here

03-Nov-2018 03:17:56 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2018 03:29:03 by Immortalized

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Immortalized said :


also developing runescript is arguably advantageous for jagex since they can easily build a runescript interpreter in another language and switch their underlying engine (java) overnight without having to change their 17+ years old codebase. it also creates a secure environment where developers programming in runescript cannot even design something fatal or insecure (e.g. writing in pure java you could easily KO a server with an error, but in runescript there is literally no way to do so). which dismisses any hypothetical security flaws telcis mentioned. I mean you can argue that, but at the same time, an interpreted language will always have lower performace than a compiled language, simply due to how they function.

It's kindof a catch-22. Either way they end up losing. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

03-Nov-2018 03:43:48 - Last edited on 03-Nov-2018 03:44:58 by Jack Flac

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Maybe.

I'll be honest. I don't buy the arguments Jaex has given, especially the one about how no-one understands the code. A language doesn't change that much. Sure, things are added and taken away overtime, but a language 10, or even 20 years ago, is at it's core no different than a laguage today.

If someone can write in php 5, they can write in php 6, or php 2. If someone can wite in python3, they can write in python 2, or python1. If someone can write in C11, they can wite in any other version of C. Yes they will have to experiment, play arund a little. But the underlying concepts of a language do not change. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

03-Nov-2018 21:49:36

Telcis

Telcis

Posts: 19,270 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jack Flac said :
Maybe.

I'll be honest. I don't buy the arguments Jaex has given, especially the one about how no-one understands the code. A language doesn't change that much. Sure, things are added and taken away overtime, but a language 10, or even 20 years ago, is at it's core no different than a laguage today.

If someone can write in php 5, they can write in php 6, or php 2. If someone can wite in python3, they can write in python 2, or python1. If someone can write in C11, they can wite in any other version of C. Yes they will have to experiment, play arund a little. But the underlying concepts of a language do not change.
Cost/time effectiveness.

Sure someone could learn the specific traits of how runescape was written (spaghetti code), but it would cost too much of the developers time. Which could be better spent addressing something that reaches more of the community.
I'm sure Jagex did consider this and through hindsight we can guess their actions.

04-Nov-2018 00:18:33

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Telcis said :
Jack Flac said :
Maybe.

I'll be honest. I don't buy the arguments Jaex has given, especially the one about how no-one understands the code. A language doesn't change that much. Sure, things are added and taken away overtime, but a language 10, or even 20 years ago, is at it's core no different than a laguage today.

If someone can write in php 5, they can write in php 6, or php 2. If someone can wite in python3, they can write in python 2, or python1. If someone can write in C11, they can wite in any other version of C. Yes they will have to experiment, play arund a little. But the underlying concepts of a language do not change.
Cost/time effectiveness.

Sure someone could learn the specific traits of how runescape was written (spaghetti code), but it would cost too much of the developers time. Which could be better spent addressing something that reaches more of the community.
I'm sure Jagex did consider this and through hindsight we can guess their actions. See that's just it. If they can work on OSRS or RS3, they can work on Classic. The codebase does not change that much. All the concepts present in Classic are going to be present in both OSRS and RS3. Runescript is Runescript. You can't change that fact. And they would have the documentation for it. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

04-Nov-2018 00:39:37

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