RuneScape Forum Archive | Another Topic: Standardization

Zrie

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Siberys said :
I disagree. A complete reset on 42 canon seems to me a bit too disproportionate to solving issues like these. A reset in addition to standardization, to me, sounds like it would cause more arguments than the issue of standardization on its own. It could work, but I don't think people would want all their characters' achievements to just be voided out. I'm not saying it's proportionate and an end to all issues, just a means to an end. Too much of our canon is contradictory with RS lore. I'm not going to go into specific incidences since everyone knows one or two, what I mean to discuss is that our canon is too inconsistent. What I see as most important to standardize is the progression of time, I've always thought it should be kept vague. Nothing's as immersion breaking as playing a character who has aged a year coming across a character that has aged a decade. It makes no sense.

If we try to standardize time we'll have to throw out what doesn't make sense, but why stop there? Many of our role-plays are a result of head-canon based on outdated lore, I've always seen it as a hurdle for new role-players. I know perfectly well that people love their characters, but sometimes you have to let go.

28-Apr-2016 18:29:17

Nov

2018

Lord Pyro I

Posts: 4,255 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zrie said :
Siberys said :
I disagree. A complete reset on 42 canon seems to me a bit too disproportionate to solving issues like these. A reset in addition to standardization, to me, sounds like it would cause more arguments than the issue of standardization on its own. It could work, but I don't think people would want all their characters' achievements to just be voided out. I'm not saying it's proportionate and an end to all issues, just a means to an end. Too much of our canon is contradictory with RS lore. I'm not going to go into specific incidences since everyone knows one or two, what I mean to discuss is that our canon is too inconsistent. What I see as most important to standardize is the progression of time, I've always thought it should be kept vague. Nothing's as immersion breaking as playing a character who has aged a year coming across a character that has aged a decade. It makes no sense.

If we try to standardize time we'll have to throw out what doesn't make sense, but why stop there? Many of our role-plays are a result of head-canon based on outdated lore, I've always seen it as a hurdle for new role-players. I know perfectly well that people love their characters, but sometimes you have to let go.

I see this as something of a non issue really, not only is our immersive lore more likely to be a draw to new players but it is also the basis for most of the stories we run on W42 in one way or another. Set against the few minor lore issues and the massive backlash from virtually everyone this doesn't seem like a good idea.

If we have a reset on W42 it should be of old OOC prejudices and grudges not our IC history. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

#WarIsComing

28-Apr-2016 18:36:27

Zrie

Posts: 4,118 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Siberys said :
I... don't think we've advocated ignoring people as a result of not conforming to what would be standardized? If you mean the current state of things, I agree. I don't like the idea of all these isolated bubbles scattered throughout the community, either. Whether standardization would cause a positive change in that, or if a different solution would be needed remains to be seen. I'd like to solve that issue, as well.

No. I know that's not being advocated, but it's often the result. I support change, but it has consequences that we'll have to deal with. Which is worse: Sticking with the same, broken system, or arguing over how to make a better one?

I think standardization is a step in the right direction, but what should we standardize and what should we leave to the discretion of the role-player?

Siberys said :
The thing is, it would have to take a while for standardization to be implemented, as it would take time to properly decide on the standard. Rushing through it has the potential to cause more problems than it solves. I'm not saying it's going to take years, like Spartae has suggested - but it's not going to be all fine and dandy in a week either. No, I wouldn't advocate that either. I think we should proceed carefully over a few months and hopefully have a functional system before summer's end. There will certainly be a lot of questions to answer.

28-Apr-2016 18:38:29

Zrie

Posts: 4,118 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Lord Pyro I said :
I see this as something of a non issue really, not only is our immersive lore more likely to be a draw to new players but it is also the basis for most of the stories we run on W42 in one way or another. Set against the few minor lore issues and the massive backlash from virtually everyone this doesn't seem like a good idea.

If we have a reset on W42 it should be of old OOC prejudices and grudges not our IC history. Unfortunately, people do not seem to have a reset button.

Our 'immersive lore' acts a constant source of argument both IC and OOC. How is that attractive to a new role-player? I'm not saying to throw away what we have but to use it as inspiration instead of a basis. We should use what we've learned, good and bad, to make something better.

I'm often of the mind to say **** the community because its lack of action has led us to this, but that won't accomplish anything. We need to find a direction that the majority will accept, yes, but we shouldn't settle for too little. I'm tired of seeing all of this inspired talk leading to next to nothing.

28-Apr-2016 18:49:12

Spartae

Posts: 5,624 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zrie said :
Lord Pyro I said :
I see this as something of a non issue really, not only is our immersive lore more likely to be a draw to new players but it is also the basis for most of the stories we run on W42 in one way or another. Set against the few minor lore issues and the massive backlash from virtually everyone this doesn't seem like a good idea.

If we have a reset on W42 it should be of old OOC prejudices and grudges not our IC history. Unfortunately, people do not seem to have a reset button.

Our 'immersive lore' acts a constant source of argument both IC and OOC. How is that attractive to a new role-player? I'm not saying to throw away what we have but to use it as inspiration instead of a basis. We should use what we've learned, good and bad, to make something better.

I'm often of the mind to say **** the community because its lack of action has led us to this, but that won't accomplish anything. We need to find a direction that the majority will accept, yes, but we shouldn't settle for too little. I'm tired of seeing all of this inspired talk leading to next to nothing .

I see this often enough, yes. Simply speaking, look at everyone who seems to support the things you do on a thread like this, reach out to them, and together work on a platform to build off of. Folks like Sib and Pyro who earnestly seem interested in the same directions of change - gather a group and talk more about it, structure it, make an anticipatory platform to introduce to the larger community.

As far as limits of standardization:

I'd say anything pertaining to game material lore (items, structures, etc) should be standardized.

Likewise, I think standardizing both rules and potential punishments/reprimands for breaking rules would help the community police itself without all of the outright ignoring/banning that goes on - it would at least stand to lessen the occurrence of such.

28-Apr-2016 19:20:40

Siberys

Posts: 4,893 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zrie said :
I'm not saying it's proportionate and an end to all issues, just a means to an end. Too much of our canon is contradictory with RS lore. I'm not going to go into specific incidences since everyone knows one or two, what I mean to discuss is that our canon is too inconsistent. What I see as most important to standardize is the progression of time, I've always thought it should be kept vague. Nothing's as immersion breaking as playing a character who has aged a year coming across a character that has aged a decade. It makes no sense.

If we try to standardize time we'll have to throw out what doesn't make sense, but why stop there? Many of our role-plays are a result of head-canon based on outdated lore, I've always seen it as a hurdle for new role-players. I know perfectly well that people love their characters, but sometimes you have to let go.

I won't deny that a healthy chunk of our canon goes against the lore of the game - the fact we have POK's with RP'er leaders is probably the most noticeable one. There's also a lot of stuff in our canon that is never even mentioned in the game, but that's more of a lorebend than a lorebreak. There's also some issues of contentious canon (Mahjarrat, for instance) that would probably need to be addressed at some point, but that seems like a separate discussion to me.

On the topic of time, I agree that immersion is really limited by the irregular character timeskips. Some of my characters have met other people's great-grandchildren, which is rather off-putting. At the same time, I feel that standardizing time could have the effect of limiting people's creativity, which I'm not too terribly keen on doing. Plus, there's the headache of what year we're even in to consider.

Since I'll address what I think ought to be standardized in another post, I'm curious what else you'd like to do, beyond standardizing time.

(cont.) "Legacy. What is a legacy? It's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see."

Siberys | W42 RP'er |

Praise Madoka.

28-Apr-2016 19:30:09

Siberys

Posts: 4,893 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zrie said :
No. I know that's not being advocated, but it's often the result. I support change, but it has consequences that we'll have to deal with. Which is worse: Sticking with the same, broken system, or arguing over how to make a better one?

Ah, my bad! I misunderstood you. True, that is all too often an unfortunate consequence, and the blacklist days are still fresh in my memory. We'll have to brainstorm a system on how to prevent that sort of thing.

As to your question, like I've said earlier: staying indifferent to issues that necessitate change will only propagate further issues. History has oft proven that point with the issue of government. So far, I think this is a great thread for us to air out our thoughts in an intellectual fashion, and I've seen minimal hostility, so I feel that the first option would be worse.

Zrie said :
I think standardization is a step in the right direction, but what should we standardize and what should we leave to the discretion of the role-player?

What I feel should be standardized:

• Melee combat: rules and guidelines on armour, weapons, metals, techniques, etc.
• Ranged combat: power and range of weaponry, much the same as above.
• Invasions, and the policy surrounding them.
• Tactics in battles: siege equipment, flanking maneuvers, etc.
• Siege warfare.
• Assassinations and espionage: how they play out, who should be informed OOC'ly, etc.
• Navies.
• Technology.

These are off the top of my head - there's likely more I've missed. The vast majority are related to RP combat and wars, because they are by far the most contentious issues in 42.

Edit: Added more bullet points.

(cont.) "Legacy. What is a legacy? It's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see."

Siberys | W42 RP'er |

Praise Madoka.

28-Apr-2016 19:46:36 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2016 19:48:16 by Siberys

Siberys

Posts: 4,893 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zrie said :
No, I wouldn't advocate that either. I think we should proceed carefully over a few months and hopefully have a functional system before summer's end. There will certainly be a lot of questions to answer.

Certainly! I estimate the most contentious issues will likely take a few months to deal with. I'm also optimistically hoping a system is in place by summer's end. There will most definitely be a lot of questions on standardization as a whole, the individual topics pertaining to it, and any future endeavors.

Spartae said :
I see this often enough, yes. Simply speaking, look at everyone who seems to support the things you do on a thread like this, reach out to them, and together work on a platform to build off of. Folks like Sib and Pyro who earnestly seem interested in the same directions of change - gather a group and talk more about it, structure it, make an anticipatory platform to introduce to the larger community.

I'd be down for that, yeah. I'd like to wait a little longer to see if the majority of the community are receptive to the idea at this particular stage, before I move forward with it, though.

Spartae said :
Likewise, I think standardizing both rules and potential punishments/reprimands for breaking rules would help the community police itself without all of the outright ignoring/banning that goes on - it would at least stand to lessen the occurrence of such.

I think a punishment system would have to be a separate package, and might prove distasteful to some, if it's introduced with standardization. I'd say only introduce a punishment system if it truly becomes necessary. If people abide by the standards, and if they don't, don't kick too much of a fuss about it, then I would say it would only be needed in extreme circumstances. "Legacy. What is a legacy? It's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see."

Siberys | W42 RP'er |

Praise Madoka.

28-Apr-2016 19:59:07

Zrie

Posts: 4,118 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Siberys said :
I won't deny that a healthy chunk of our canon goes against the lore of the game - the fact we have POK's with RP'er leaders is probably the most noticeable one. There's also a lot of stuff in our canon that is never even mentioned in the game, but that's more of a lorebend than a lorebreak. There's also some issues of contentious canon (Mahjarrat, for instance) that would probably need to be addressed at some point, but that seems like a separate discussion to me. Aye, a discussion best saved for another time. What's bothered me more recently than POKs existing is the relative frequency of wars between them. In Runescape lore there's not really a precedent for this outside of Tyras vs Elves and W.K. vs Kinshra, I know it's a huge part of W42's history and tradition, but it makes little sense to me. When there's potential for so many conflicts, why are we always drawn to wars between the human kingdoms?

Siberys said :
On the topic of time, I agree that immersion is really limited by the irregular character timeskips. Some of my characters have met other people's great-grandchildren, which is rather off-putting. At the same time, I feel that standardizing time could have the effect of limiting people's creativity, which I'm not too terribly keen on doing. Plus, there's the headache of what year we're even in to consider. Yeah, Jagex doesn't help us much on the matter. I don't see it as too much a limit on people's creativity, to be honest, it's a trade-off between having more personal development with characters and the development of bloodlines. I've always been more interested in the former, but everyone has their tastes. Although, I've always seen opportunity in time-scaling before the 'now' of RP to develop a character's past.

Edit: I agree with the rest of what you said, Sib, but I need to mull a bit before saying specifics on what I think needs to be standardized.

28-Apr-2016 20:13:56 - Last edited on 28-Apr-2016 20:21:24 by Zrie

DMMetalaane

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I didn't really mean a whole blank slate. I meant it in the context of the friendship. Thing is, I think the very first hurdle for any communal change is the fact that there's a lot of malice and hate between people. Some justified, some not.

I've always wondered if a widely received initiative to forgive everyone for their past transgressions could happen. Not forget, because otherwise we couldn't see who'd be going right back to their old ways . Or maybe it's more apt to say usual ways .

I stress old ways, because it's just that. Old. People change, but some malice runs deep in the past and hasn't been dammed up yet. I think that if, at least some of us, took a good long look at the people we have a disdain for right now...we might just see we're not too different. Save yourself.
Savior self.

28-Apr-2016 20:49:08

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