RuneScape Forum Archive | ~ Rite of Passage V2 ~

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user

Hey guys,

So it seems that the majority of people are happy with Endgame as a requirement. I'm intending to create a new version ROP design for my TAPP tomorrow and I'll use this data as a guideline. Obviously I reserve the right to remove this requirement if it is determined that the requirement hinders, rather than helps it.

Feel free to continue discussing the point, I'll probably create a couple of possible designs over future TAPPs. I'd offer to share them, but there will be horrifying spoilers in there that I don't want you to see.

= Raven =

17-Jan-2018 17:19:42

Dec

2023

WizardsBeard

Posts: 1,217 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Now thats super exciting!

17-Jan-2018 17:41:54

Dec

2011

Armodilo

Posts: 690 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

If the quest is making a usable area is it accessible by everyone and hosts the quest, or is it going to be locked behind the quest?
Because I saw someone earlier in the thread mention this:
Two of the game's major factions don't have a quest yet. Armadyl is one of those factions. To lock the only quest for a faction behind massive levels is simply wrong, when other factions like Saradomin and Zamorak have quests that are much more accessible.

Also it might be seen as a bit of a non content week for people who haven't done the quests considering the amount of dev time it would take up so may make sense to have the area accessible to everyone or have a small prequel for access.

17-Jan-2018 19:05:50 - Last edited on 17-Jan-2018 19:06:08 by Armodilo

Zulkir

Posts: 7,343 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mod Raven said :
Hey guys,

So it seems that the majority of people are happy with Endgame as a requirement. I'm intending to create a new version ROP design for my TAPP tomorrow and I'll use this data as a guideline. Obviously I reserve the right to remove this requirement if it is determined that the requirement hinders, rather than helps it.

Feel free to continue discussing the point, I'll probably create a couple of possible designs over future TAPPs. I'd offer to share them, but there will be horrifying spoilers in there that I don't want you to see.

= Raven =

It's very relieving would be a good word, to see you and hopefully other devs not afraid to use Endgame as a requirement, as it should well be.

I do if I'm being honest have this very real fear that Endgame will be pushed aside requirement wise just to appease first day/week Quest play numbers, and while I appreciate those are important for you to show i hope it's kept in mind that Quests are going to be around for years to come, not just that initial release period, Big quests should always be something you strive for, not have a big wide open gate saying "All welcome".

Zarosian Lorehound

Master Questcape Owner

Inconsistent Completionist

17-Jan-2018 21:24:51 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2018 13:22:18 by Zulkir

Rondstat

Posts: 2,770 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'm in the no-Endgame camp, though that's largely based on the quest overview we got way back in 2013, which may not be super-relevant anymore.

I'm quite fond of the idea of a quest that focuses on Aviansie, their culture, their home, their history, and the cultural/social shock of our new Age. In a lot of 6th Age content, Gods have existed as monolithic forces, driving the world's engines, and with the first chapter 'concluded,' I'd love to step back and see a more humanistic focus, the communities affected, factions represented by the mortals who do the real groundwork in interpreting, implementing, arguing the course of their order, and bringing their mandates/advice/directives to the people. Armadyleans are a particularly rich vein to mine, with the many different interpretations of Armadylean philosophy we've had over the years, exemplars ranging from militant to pacifistic, even the explicit shift in theme/alignment Armadyl adopted with the 6th Age.

For a quest with any thematic throughline in that direction, the events of Endgame (or even the potential death/survival of Armadyl) don't seem particularly relevant. Perhaps I'm completely off base here (I don't know the meat of the real quest proposal) - but the Rite of Passage that got me excited (and that I eagerly anticipate more than any other god/faction quest) is one where Sliske's machinations and Armadyl's individual plans on Gielinor don't come into play.

The one thing I've seen folks come back to is the Seren connection. And while it was a fine bit of maze dialogue, it's honestly not something I'd like to see form the crux of future plots. It feels more like a bonus, a little silver lining for when the smoke clears, but not a story in itself. If they do end up cooperating, I'd rather that happen off screen. Maybe a tiny bonus elf island on Abbinah you can see postquest if you've done Endgame, but no more than that.

18-Jan-2018 11:37:25

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user

Interesting thoughts their Rondstat, so I'll try and respond as best I can without giving away too many spoilers.

Firstly, the original design has had to be dramatically tweaked due to the changes we've made in the story so far. However, the quest still very much focuses on character and tries to keep focus a step removed from the gods for a lot of it (though obviously Armadyl strongly features).

The reason I would like to use the elven plotline is because it gives a really nice setup for the rest of it and it lets me bring in the more personal "people" themes early on in a way that flows nicely and isn't just suddenly out of nowhere.

Continued thoughts below in spoiler brackets, but with this caveat:

Caveat: All of the stuff below is purely my current TAPP idea for it, it has not gone by the rest of my team nor the lore council and is therefore subject to be completely changed. The design below is also not an indication of ROP being on the release schedule, it is just me working on stuff in my TAPP.

Spoilers below, do not read if you want to be surprised by anything.

Final warning: Spoilers ahead

So, because it's not so big a spoiler, my current planned opening for the quest has the player begin by speaking to Armadyl post-endgame who wants to begin a diplomatic mission with the elves regarding a migration of aviansie from Abbinah to Tarddiad. He believes that the aviansie can help rehabilitate the shapeshifters and given that they can comfortably dwell in areas inhospitable to the elves, the world should be safely shared between them.

However, he wants this to be an agreement between people and not between gods. So he tasks the player with bringing in the new Guardians of Armadyl, notably the new marshal (Che'veerah, who was mentioned at RuneFest).

What follows, without being specific, are human (ok elf and aviansie) responses to problems and finding human solutions to them, rather than using godly powers. The plans need to be workable between mortals if they are going to last.

So this means humanitarian aid, rebuilding, healing, diplomacy.

It begins on Tarddiad, but moves quickly to Abbinah, where those themes are continued but shown in a different light. The aviansie aren't addicts, but they are suffering and yet they are proud and convincing them to leave their homeworld won't be easy.

On Abbinah I intend to expose the player to a bunch of the aviansie culture (as reasonbly as I can, as said before this won't be an epic 12 hour long quest, so I'll try and keep things achievable yet with scope for more added later). I want most of this to be done with a mortal face, person to person (a lot of this will be done through the interactions with Aralim as the player joins him on his Rite of Passage).

Unsurprisingly I intend to tell more of Armadyl's story at the same time. But a lot of it will be done through the eyes of his people. We'll likely also learn a bit more about the old spirit religion and how it affects the aviansie today.

Obviously there's more to this though. I have some juciy lore points and reveals to tell, but I won't explicitly state them here.

Obviously I may be trying to do too much with my first pitch. I expect to rescope and to potentially rewrite in order to be achievable, but I feel one should always try and reach for the stars and then cut back to the moon.

But I think I can use the post-endgame elements to tell a nicely compelling human story.

Also anything learned in RoP will almost certainly be stuff that players would feel a need to be able to ask Amradyl about in Endgame, which means I'd need to devote a bunch of time to adding in that dialogue to Endgame, which isn't a small ask.

So that's where I'm coming from at the moment. Again this is only the prelim ideas so please don't add this information to the wikia or anything. But as you guys are the most dedicated to the idea, I'd like to try and keep you in the loop as much as I can, trusting that you have the caveat of knowing that it's all subject to change and that me writing this is not an indication that ROP is on the schedule (it currently isn't, but I'm always going to be arguing to get it on there).

Hope this is interesting.

= Raven =

18-Jan-2018 12:01:35

Rondstat

Posts: 2,770 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

If I may make a general comment...

I understand and thoroughly respect that RoP is a large project, and with many high-priority systems overhauls on the horizon, it makes sense it would wait for a development slot.

But Runescape is a 17 year old game, and in nearly two decades, it has seen essential systems, graphics, combat, the entire engine reworked time and time again. In a game this old, there is always something massive to update, to retool to maintain relevance. Rehauling the game is a project that will never stop, and if RoP has to wait for every high-priority project to be finished, well, by then it'll be time for the old high-priority projects to be reworked again.

I know the devs don't really have a lot of input on this sort of scheduling, and the scrum system really throttles opportunities for more niche content to see the light of day. But if RoP has any hope of being made, the managers can't wait for the 'right' time, when there's nothing higher priority - they'll just need to buckle down and budget it. I firmly believe that quests - while bearing a very high investment for their level of player engagement - vastly elevate Runescape's pedigree, and are this game's 'showcase' content in the way that raids or graphics are for many other MMOs.

I'm not sure just how large an investment RoP requires relative to other updates. But, if it had a similar number of new assets, new environments, mechanical depth, plotting, dialogue length, resource quality, sound design, playtime, and thorough QA as One Piercing Note, I would be absolutely, wildly ecstatic. This may be unrealistic - perhaps Jagex doesn't earmark this level of investment in quests anymore. But I feel it would be something worth shooting for.

EDIT: Thanks for the reply, Raven! I actually really like that jumping-off point and the focus you've outlined, and I understand the desire to set thing post-Endgame, now.

18-Jan-2018 12:03:08 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2018 12:15:26 by Rondstat

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user

So Rondstat, I personally totally agree, but I also understand that realistically it's not that simple. If RoP is deemed to need say a years worth of graphics/dev work, then that's several updates blocked and when a quest often has a bit more of a niche audience then other things, it's tricky.

That said, part of this is my fault for the original design. So part of the reason I am doing th design in TAPP is to show that actually it doesn't need that massive time sink to work and work well. It just needs to be built sensibly and with the right focuses, which is why I'm regularly chatting on this thread about it.

Though on a tangential note, I do have something I thought I might get you guys brainstorming early on:

What rewards do you want from this?

There was the discussion of skilling plots on Abbinah, but I'd like you to think about how these would work, be useful and not cause horrific balancing issues. I also want to avoid dailyscape.

I'd REALLY like to bring the idea of discovery in as a reward. Perhaps limited stock skilling plots with good xp and resources, but that they only exist on the island. New crafting associated with them (try and think skilling rather than combat).

I'd like to leave lore discoveries in there as well, but that's because I want an excuse to write a library's worth of books.

Have a think. What would really make you want to do this quest, considering it is post endgame?

= Raven =

18-Jan-2018 12:53:58

Zulkir

Posts: 7,343 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mod Raven said :

What rewards do you want from this?

= Raven =

I like the idea of discovery, but how about making us work for that discovery as a community?

Perhaps a certain island that'll only be accessible under certain circumstances, or a PostQuest Puzzle that'll take more than your average Clue solver to figure out, I don't mean for you to send us on another Ga'al hunt like Stu, God bless him but that was exhausting.

Something permanent, something that'll make people tell a story over having to discover it as a team, having it be Scenic, Generous with Exp, and of course containing the best reward of all, Post quest Lore.

Zarosian Lorehound

Master Questcape Owner

Inconsistent Completionist

18-Jan-2018 13:17:15 - Last edited on 18-Jan-2018 13:35:03 by Zulkir

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Mod Raven,
Regarding your opening pitch.

You're right about how much work would need to be done by you to dev it, then how much time the player will spend in game.

Bridging the gap between the elves and the avianese wouldn't be as problematic as trying to bridge the gaps between Israelis and Palestinians. Frankly, the 2 factions aren't at war with each other. And both races (not the gods) might be more sympathetic to the other's plights than you fist think.
This would allow you to scale down the number of tasks you must do in order to get the ball rolling.
After that, when you get a feel for how much dev time you have after the main quest is done, you could add in a few other tasks post quest to help continue bridging the culture gaps.
(ie: you sketch out 15, you implement 6 in quest, you and another dev get enough time to add in 4 of the sketched ideas)

As for post quest rewards?
Another Calquat tree patch?

If you have plans for any sort of mining spot, wait for it after the mining/smithing rework. If the quest becomes as high leveled as you suggest, then it would be a great spot for one of the new secondary ores or something. But would be silly to add yet another rune rock in game now.

It might be interesting to see an Herblore activity.
The avianese and elven crystal shapeshifters have very unique biologies.
You might need to use herbs and secondaries from Herblore habitat and other locations to help mix ointments the Avianese healers want to try to use.
(this idea being you wouldn't be coding new potions into the game. The NPC might want to try an Argaway + Legerberry + another ingredient. The player interacts with a piece of scenery. Hands move about in an action. Ingredients disappear from your inventory, while a dialogue box says you create a potion and immediately hand it to the healer.)

18-Jan-2018 13:29:39

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~ Rite of Passage V2 ~