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Mod Raven

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Ava Enithesi said :
Mod Raven said :
(we had this issue with adding in Heart of Stone after the Fate of the Gods. It narratively sits before Fate of the Gods, but because Fate of the Gods had already happened, it didn't reveal anything extra and the plot was lambasted as a result).

So the question is whether to ignore that and try anyway, or acknowledge the way things are and run with it.

= Raven =

Now that’s interesting and something I didn’t know. In Heart of Stone, you do get the option to tell Xenia that Zaros has a plan IF you completed FOTG. But I didn’t know that HoS was actually supposed to take place BEFORE FotG.

I also thought that HoS had no big reveals and didn’t do much to advance the plot because players didn’t want that. The follow-up polls once Elder Gods won indicated that players didn’t want to meet an Elder God or learn all their deepest secrets, and this was the result.

So this is why I say the pre-endgame armadyl ship has realistically sailed.

HoS was written as a novice/intermediate level quest, which means chronologically it should have sat before Fate of the Gods (as it is lower level). However players obviously completed Fate of the Gods first and so saw it as coming afterwards.

This is an issue with how we've handled chronology in our quests. We've jumped all over the place and we try and write quests to be done in any order.

We're starting to feel that this isn't the best plan and that perhaps we should have a clear chronology for quests going forward. Unfortunately that would mean that if we are beholden to quest requirements, that we lock novice quests behind grandmasters, because narratively it makes sense, but at the cost of playability.

It's a big argument point in the office. ;)

= Raven =

12-Jul-2018 08:50:17

Falkorgron
Jun Member 2020

Falkorgron

Posts: 1,573 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Kimi Mela said :
So there's no realistic way of making an Armadyl quest that lower level players (i.e. anyone who hasn't spilled billions into herblore for ovls /saltsaltsalt) will be able to do?

As already explained before, RoP from the developers point of view was never to make it as an introduction to the Armadyl faction. Raven's initial intention was probably and has always been to make RoP intact with the Sliske storyline while it ended confusing most people interested in this topic that supposedly Raven was trying to start a whole new Armadyl theme - which is not the point of RoP. In fact, RoP will probably contain more lore, content, and plot story coming from Sliske's endgame more than it will actually be about Armadyl himself although no one really knows the story of the quest. If they want to make quests that are really about Armadyl and his faction, it would have to be done on a separate questline where they would have to start from scratch. Unfortunately, due to time and resources that work, it will most likely happen after RoP which wont be until next year.

13-Jul-2018 00:46:24

Mod Raven

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Kimi Mela said :
So there's no realistic way of making an Armadyl quest that lower level players (i.e. anyone who hasn't spilled billions into herblore for ovls /saltsaltsalt) will be able to do?

So there appears to be a bit of a misunderstanding here, I'll try and explain.

Could we make an armadyl quest for lower level players?

The short answer is "yes", we could.

However.

The way the game works, and the way the community interacts with narrative is that this quest would effectively be post-endgame, even if it didn't have endgame as a requirement. Because a good chunk of people have already done endgame and those that haven't are all likely very aware of the storyline by now.

So we could, but narratively there isn't a great deal of point.

We couldn't put things in there that would potentially change your opinion of Armadyl, for example, because those who have sided with Armadyl in Endgame and used up their second canon playthrough would not be able to undo that, so it would be unfair to provide such knowledge in an earlier quest.

We could set up the Armadyl faction, but in reality we've already done that. Just not with an individual plotline, so again it would make little point.

So this brings us to the actual question which is:

Should we lock all narratively appropriate quests behind Endgame?

i.e We start the new quest at an intermediate/novice level and don't make Endgame a hard requirement. Instead we put a warning saying that you really should play endgame first and we treat the questlines going forward as assuming endgame has been done.

This is realistically the only narratively sensible way to make something like this work and still keep it appropriate.

Does this make sense?

= Raven =

13-Jul-2018 12:40:15

Lopendebank3
Jan Member 2021

Lopendebank3

Posts: 2,460 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Deltaslug said :
Odds Mod Raven uses the quest as an opportunity to kill off Armadyl?

Yeah cuz that worked great with V... I don't think Armadyl should die after you return his world to glory, imo Armadyl should eventually die however, not by falling to another god but by his own choice, as death predicted:
I feel the lightness of my being, soaring perhaps, and then a fall. I let the ground take me. But this is not a sad moment, I am full of pride.
I think that at some moment Armadyl Sacrifices himself for the greater good.

Kimi Mela said :
Endgame issues

For a quester that done all quests this isn't a requirement at all, but since Armadyl doesn't have any lower level quest in the beginning I wonder if it could somehow be split like the wizard tower quests and the prince ali's rescue? ROP part 1 and ROP part 2-return of the raven? Or would that be too hard? EXP is not important, it's important to have fun and play with your friends. :) - Lopendebank3

13-Jul-2018 19:42:48 - Last edited on 13-Jul-2018 19:46:28 by Lopendebank3

A Mighty

A Mighty

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Mod Raven said :


Should we lock all narratively appropriate quests behind Endgame?

i.e We start the new quest at an intermediate/novice level and don't make Endgame a hard requirement. Instead we put a warning saying that you really should play endgame first and we treat the questlines going forward as assuming endgame has been done.

This is realistically the only narratively sensible way to make something like this work and still keep it appropriate.

Does this make sense?

= Raven =

I vote for this then.

Not even really for the RoP sense, but I don't want RoP (or any other quest) to start a precedent where all new lore-heavy quests, regardless of difficulty or skill requirements, are locked behind grandmaster-level quests accessible really to only players who have or are nearing the quest cape...
To those cursed by war and pest, Come into the light of Armadyl and rest. This is the law of Armadyl.

13-Jul-2018 21:59:41

Kimi Mela

Kimi Mela

Posts: 46 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mod Raven said :

We couldn't put things in there that would potentially change your opinion of Armadyl, for example, because those who have sided with Armadyl in Endgame and used up their second canon playthrough would not be able to undo that, so it would be unfair to provide such knowledge in an earlier quest.

I don't really think it's fair in either case. On one hand, Armadyl is getting shafted because people don't really understand what he's actually like/about, on the other, people who have made their decision find out they're wrong. Personally, I'm in favor of the latter.

Besides, there are still people who, despite everything, don't understand Zaros, so I doubt it'll honestly change that much for those who have made their choice already.

Mod Raven said :

i.e We start the new quest at an intermediate/novice level and don't make Endgame a hard requirement. Instead we put a warning saying that you really should play endgame first and we treat the questlines going forward as assuming endgame has been done.


I'm in favor of this. Endgame's combat requirements and quest requirements individually are both insane. I have completed every other quest, but I'm locked behind barely being able to beat Gregorovic by himself. I could live with ROP being locked behind Endgame, but I would prefer not.

But if it's a remote possibility, I'm most in favor of getting a completely separate, lower-level set of quests about the Aviansie, à la Dorgeshuun, on top of ROP. Or even just one, to reclaim the citadel or some such. But that's a whole other discussion.

14-Jul-2018 20:36:05 - Last edited on 15-Jul-2018 00:34:36 by Kimi Mela

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