RuneScape Forum Archive | ~ Rite of Passage V2 ~

Mar

2020

Rensler

Posts: 668 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Would RoP involve any of the conditions that came after Sliske's Endgame?

Such as

Seren

cooperating with

Armadyl

in regard to the aviansie living on Tarddiad or solving the issue with the crystal shapeshiftters?

Or maybe the pact with

Zaros

if you raced Armadyl at the end of SE? Does the pact still stand even though the stone was destroyed? (separate question I know but still)

Would this be in separate content? Supporter of

Saradomin

Armadyl

Tumeken

V

25-Dec-2017 01:37:46 - Last edited on 25-Dec-2017 01:40:12 by Rensler

Ava Enithesi

Posts: 780 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Rensler said :
snip, sorry, needed more room

This is precisely why Mod Raven was musing about making this quest take place either before or after Sliske's Endgame. I think the consensus here is that this quest should take place afterwards for the sake of not mangling the timelines even more than is already done by releasing 5th age quests in the post-TWW-era, but not necessarily have Sliske's Endgame as a hard requirement (though an argument could be made in favor of that, one that I don't personally agree with, but will nevertheless acknowledge as something not totally beyond the pale).

The pact with Zaros happens regardless of whom you race in the maze, to be clear. Zamorak alludes to this in the "invitations" part of the quest, when he essentially says that Zaros doesn't keep all his eggs in one basket. One can assume, then, that for each player, before SE takes place, that Zaros confers with at least Armadyl and Saradomin and strikes a similar deal with them as he did in Children of Mah with Zamorak - the only such pact we actually witness taking place.

Interestingly, Armadyl is the "default," of sorts, option for the race - you have to make a specific choice and/or get through the maze fast if you want to race either Saradomin or Zamorak. Thus, it could make sense for most players to allude to the pact, as most players will have seen the pact regarding Armadyl brought up, rather than Zamorak's or Saradomin's. I'd personally place more emphasis on his negotiations with Seren to move the Aviansies to Tarddiad because that's a hook for the future; whereas the pact with Zaros and Seren are only relevant to Endgame itself, and are, as far as I know, rendered null by the destruction of the Stone of Jas.

29-Dec-2017 07:34:14

Ava Enithesi

Posts: 780 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

As for whether it'd be in separate content, I'd contend that it need not be; I'm sure there'd be room to expand upon those things in this quest and not take too much away from everything else the quest seeks to accomplish. But that, of course, is Mod Raven's call at the end of the day.

29-Dec-2017 07:38:22

Zulkir

Posts: 7,343 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

ROP should certainly take place after Endgame.

I believe the threads introduced from SE can really enrich the quest if it's canonically after it's taken place, Armadyl can have a key feature and perhaps even Seren if we want to move ahead quickly with that, Abbinah as a world is useless and on the brink of death so I don't see the use in building it into an actual world when it's going to fall into itself eventually.

Certainly there's some branching if people were very against the idea for the Aviansie moving to a different homeland altogether, which is very valid but I wouldn't like this to be an optional outcome, I'd rather it be sorted out with Armadyl and Seren properly without us there, because it's clearly the best solution moving forward.

Zarosian Lorehound

Master Questcape Owner

Inconsistent Completionist

29-Dec-2017 19:10:33

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

While making it canonically take place after Sliske's Endgame isn't an issue ... there is an issue with tying the 2 quests together: player choice.

Assuming you even got the Seren/Armadyl cutscene, players could influence if Armadyl's suggestion to Seren to move the Avianese there to help care for the remaining Cywir clan ... you could have suggested to go for it, to table the decision, or for Seren to say 'no'.

Now, Seren and Armadyl could have had a follow up dialogue about the matter after Endgame (regardless of your suggestion).
Perhaps Seren had a change of heart (if you suggested to postpone the decision or said 'no')
Perhaps Abbinah got into worse shape and Armadyl had to act regardless of how Seren feels about the matter. Now that they are there, and Abbinah isn't safe anymore, Seren grudgingly caved in.
The Cywir clan (on Tarddiad) have taken a turn for the worse (or having someone else present improves their condition), and they now need some sort of round the clock care, and the Avianese's offer is the best thing on the table until Seren (or someone) can come up with a permanent solution.

It wouldn't be the first time that a player's action in a quest had little effect on the outcome *cough* Temple of Ikov *cough* in a later quest.

30-Dec-2017 04:08:43 - Last edited on 30-Dec-2017 04:10:04 by Deltaslug

Ava Enithesi

Posts: 780 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zulkir said :
I believe the threads introduced from SE can really enrich the quest if it's canonically after it's taken place, Armadyl can have a key feature and perhaps even Seren if we want to move ahead quickly with that...

I'm not so eager to move so quickly ahead with it for this quest. It should be a part of it for sure, but not so much that it takes focus away from the titular ritual, the Aviansie lore, and the new Guardians of Armadyl. I think the scrapping of Expansion 2 really threw a wrench into all this - I believe we would have had more exploration of this as a part of Expansion 2 (which we know was not going to feature Abbinah), as we were promised "a bit of Aviansie lore and content."

Zulkir said :
...Abbinah as a world is useless and on the brink of death so I don't see the use in building it into an actual world when it's going to fall into itself eventually.

I guess I have a different headcanon on what Abbinah is like, because the timescale of it "falling into itself" (a conclusion I find questionable for reasons I won't get into now) in my HC is on a scale of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years from now. I've seen no evidence to suggest that the sinking of all sky-islands into the ocean is in any way imminent. The Aviansies want to leave (again) because it's not a nice place to live, what with the storms, island collisions, and possible other hostile life forms (I imagine there are far more dangerous hostile creatures than just "Kasaran," for instance), not because of the imminent or even eventual end of the world.

31-Dec-2017 01:30:24

Ava Enithesi

Posts: 780 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zulkir said :
Certainly there's some branching if people were very against the idea for the Aviansie moving to a different homeland altogether, which is very valid but I wouldn't like this to be an optional outcome...

The wiki's transcript is still incomplete...

...so I have no idea what happens if the player says after Armadyl's pitch to Seren, "this is a bad idea." To even get that, you have to choose "Listen to Armadyl." In any case, whether you respond with "it's a good idea" or "this needs more discussion," Seren will invite Armadyl to Prifddinas so that they talk about it more offscreen. In other words, I'm not sure how much "branching" there actually is; for all I know Seren still invites Armadyl to talk more after the "game" is done. I'll be sure to do a non-canon replay and hope to find this out.

Zulkir said :
I'd rather it be sorted out with Armadyl and Seren properly without us there, because it's clearly the best solution moving forward.

And I'd respectfully disagree; a basic element of storytelling is showing rather than telling; you want to show stuff more than tell, to the best of your ability. People were very confused by offscreen things being called up in Endgame, the prime example being that Zaros had made pacts with both Saradomin and Armadyl, though understandably there wasn't enough time to show that, and we were meant to infer that with Zamorak making the pact in Children of Mah and alluding to the possibility of Zaros having more pacts ("My only comfort is knowing that I am surely not the only one pinioned in this way. Zaros never puts all his eggs in one basket.&quot

. Still, I don't understand why the negotiations should all take place offscreen and be dumped on us in this particular piece of content.

31-Dec-2017 01:52:38 - Last edited on 31-Dec-2017 01:52:55 by Ava Enithesi

Mar

2020

Rensler

Posts: 668 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

It does make you wonder if that's what Zaros was doing when we see him talking to Seren at the beginning of SE, possibly trying to make a pact even with her? Supporter of

Saradomin

Armadyl

Tumeken

V

31-Dec-2017 08:00:06

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Rensler said :
It does make you wonder if that's what Zaros was doing when we see him talking to Seren at the beginning of SE, possibly trying to make a pact even with her?

I'm not entirely sure what Zaros could have used for leverage/bargaining with Seren.
Seren's priorities:
- everything regarding her elves
- liberating the ones on Gielinor from their binding to her
- saving/treating the ones on Tarddiad
- preventing Zaros from ascending to Elder Godhood

unless Zaros happened to have the cure for the Elves, he had nothing she wanted.
and promising to "help" is to vague.

bare in mind that his pact with Zamorak was to do something to prevent the draining of power by Mah. he had a concrete solution for it. it's not like it was guaranteed to work (just because you follow the recipe to bake a cake, you could still make a mistake and burn it), but he did have a viable plan.

with Saradomin, his pact was far simpler, he had Saradomin's daughter as a hostage (of sorts?).

with Armadyl, it was to help/protect Armadyl's people. what manner that was, is still TBD. tbh, the number of worlds they could move to is sufficient, so it wouldn't be too hard to uphold that part of the bargain.

01-Jan-2018 18:11:06

Mod Raven

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user

Rensler said :
Would RoP involve any of the conditions that came after Sliske's Endgame?

Such as

Seren

cooperating with

Armadyl

in regard to the aviansie living on Tarddiad or solving the issue with the crystal shapeshiftters?

Or maybe the pact with

Zaros

if you raced Armadyl at the end of SE? Does the pact still stand even though the stone was destroyed? (separate question I know but still)

Would this be in separate content?

The original design does not cover this subject no.

I reserve the right to include it if it feels narratively important in the new design though.

Edit: Further to this, it's likely that if the quest were to exist post-endgame, then the discussions between Armadyl and Seren would either have been held already or would be held as part of the quest. Regardless of the player's choice it's likely that Armadyl would have pressed it and opened a dialogue with Seren, both are reasonable individuals after all.

My preference would be to reference it in RoP, but not have it be the full focus of the quest.

= Raven =

03-Jan-2018 09:32:34 - Last edited on 03-Jan-2018 09:47:54 by Mod Raven

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