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Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,311 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
This was what I wrote:

"Do you still love your old POH? Have A Fort of Our Own killed the old POH?"


I asked questions. I didn't say the Fort killed POH or not, and I don't think Jagex wanted to kill POH. It is up to the players.

Evidently, most players like all sorts of player owned content, not just POH. I don't doubt some will find POH totally dead soon given so many more enjoyable, less grindy options to train construction. However there may still be some player who may want to have a cosmetic version of POH just like some players like cosmetic skins, pets etc.

What we learned from Runefest 2011 is Mod Mark said the concept of construction (POH) was broken then, that's why we needed other forms of player owned content to fix the concept and build our world the proper way outside a small confined space. However, I don't think they are against the existence of POH.

So cosmetic updates like Achievements Showcase, new wallpapers and such are still quite possible, but as far as a farming patch inside our home is just anti-climatic when we already have 2 proper POF outside POH. The old POH can't be huge for long as we have very limited resources for a small piece of land. That's a given. We can see all kinds of significant future construction updates being diversified all over Gielinor.

22-Feb-2023 03:20:03

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It's on life support -now- and it has nothing to do with how Construction is trained.

I'm going to liken this example to PvP content in the game. There are two things that need to happen to keep PvP alive in the game, and if you think Jagex isn't responsible for one of those things, you're fooling yourself.

1. Players have to want to engage with the content on a semi-regular basis.

2. The game has to routinely provide the content attention via oversight and/or regular updates.

Can you tell me when the last PvP update was? (The answer is -not- the Wilderness Rework last year, and it definitely wasn't Het's Oasis.)

---

The POH is eight years dry on any content, mundane or otherwise, and it has had its most appealing features either get straight up powercrept by newer methods (Powder of Burials, Wilderness Altar with noted bones nearby, Passage of the Abyss, Lodestone Network) or has deteriorated due to general neglect. (Not many wanna utilize a fun PvP dungeon if PvP hasn't been fun for a long time.)

The adage goes "if you build it, they will come."

Responsibility ultimately falls on Jagex to decide what is worth their time and what isn't.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

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22-Feb-2023 03:36:27

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,311 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
PvP is dead in Jagex's games because they don't have the technologies for the modern pvp centric players. Realistically hardly anybody like legacy combat, not only pvp these modern days, and EOC is hindered by the slow tick system. Not that Jagex doesn't care. I believe they actually care a lot about combat and pvp but they will have to improve the tick system to make EOC shine first. Mod Pips personally asked for this for years, so don't say Jagex doesn't care.

Likewise, the concept of legacy POH construction is totally broken and unrealistic. No modern players will like it so Jagex need to diversify and extend its full potentials through new and modern life simulating player owned content. If they want to see fossilized dinosaurs they don't go to the animal farm in their POH. They go to a real life dinosaur museum. However, if they want to see living dinosaurs in RS3. They can go to their very own POF2.

22-Feb-2023 03:54:21

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

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I absolutely think a faster tick-system would help with combat in RS3 specifically, and I hope Pips is able to lock it down. That's certainly promising, and it does address a major concern about EOC PvP that was present since the new combat system's introduction.

However, let's say it happens. How does this fix PvP's issues?

> There is no proper area to fight players 1v1 with established rulesets, instead forcing players to just trust a duel anywhere in the game would be honorable to some established ruleset purely between the combatants themselves.

> There is no small team vs small team PvP area that would be engaging and utilize the abilities the player has available to them.

> Castle Wars is only "active" on spotlight, and many players choose to enter the game and leech.

> Clan Wars is only active in F2P W3, and that's not including the purple portal, which is where the "Clan" aspect of the name originated in the first place.

> Stealing Creation is only "active" when the bigger SC friends chats are engaging with it, and they strictly ban actively attacking the other team's players during the games because the game now only exists to farm points for skilling outfits.

> Nobody plays Fist of Guthix.

> Wilderness PvP only takes place when FCs decide to rewind time and slap each other up - or when Warbands is active because players who are there for the experience become viable targets.

A lot of the above is -not- Jagex's fault, but it displays a large lack of modernized PvP activities and more importantly, shows a general lack of care (yes, I'm gonna say it) about stimulating those areas in the meantime while Pips works about getting that game tick decreased.

And none of those things mention how difficult it is for players to grasp the Evolution of Combat in the sense of PvP either.

The POH is very similar to PvP in this regard. There's a lot of apathy on the player level, but there's a distinct lack of action at the company level.
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Maxed
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22-Feb-2023 04:24:40

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,311 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
^^
Games need new players to survive, and to attract new players we need modern game play and long lasting, expandable systems with flexibilities.

How hard is it to grasp the concept of EOC when essentially all sort of MMORPG and ARPG like WoW and Destiny used the very similar ability based combat system?

Likewise, how hard is it to grasp the concept of lore based player owned world building content in RS3 when the world is full of players of Construction and Simulation Games like The Sims and Minecraft?

We need to build the foundations and groundworks first before we can build a successful, long lasting game. Playing Jenga without building the foundations won't work.

RS3 has the solid foundations in world building player owned content and episodic lore for a decade already. It should reap profits and gain on new players sooner or later.

On the contrary, we don't really have a foundation for top tier combat, let alone pvp. That's why Jagex can't rush. The 0.3s tick and VFX system they said they may be ready soon can be the foundations for a game changing EOC system.

We need to have the foundations, the groundworks, the conduits etc first before we build the working prototype to attract the actual mass of new players. It is the same thing for construction, player owned content, combat, pvp, minigames and anything else you can think of.

22-Feb-2023 04:48:15 - Last edited on 22-Feb-2023 04:54:25 by Dilbert2001

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
See, I could definitely understand that argument except for the following points.

> RuneScape as a game has lasted for over 22 years.

> the Evolution of Combat has been around for half as long, 11 years.

> Construction and the Player Owned House have been around for about 17 years.

To put that into perspective, it takes a month, maybe, to lay foundation for a REAL, HOUSE.

Are you honestly saying that players should be -content- with waiting upwards of a DECADE without ANY stimulating updates for their preferred pieces of content for some realized baseline to be reached?

You aren't -wrong- about foundations being important, and it feels like the game has been torn down and built back up multiple times throughout its history and has so far managed to avoid death, although there's now 2 RuneScapes when one was -really- all that was needed in my opinion.

You aren't -wrong- about new players being attracted to sound, well-performing games, except for the fact that it shouldn't be holding -current- players hostage by not fixing things they when they can in the meantime.

If something is EXPECTED to take upwards of 10 years, then it's just good business to make the fixes and stopgaps you need in the meantime to keep the players you have invested. This applies to PvP, this applies to players with maxed out houses that do absolutely nothing for them, This applies to everyone.

Jagex can do it for PVMers and Completionists. Why not everyone else?
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
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22-Feb-2023 05:09:23

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,311 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"To put that into perspective, it takes a month, maybe, to lay foundation for a REAL, HOUSE."


Totally wrong. It takes not a month, not a year, not a decade, not 22 years, but forever. It is an always on-going never-ending evolution process to adapt to the evolving real world environment.

"You aren't -wrong- about foundations being important, and it feels like the game has been torn down and built back up multiple times throughout its history and has so far managed to avoid death, although there's now 2 RuneScapes when one was -really- all that was needed in my opinion."


Real life data, especially payments tell the story. RS3 is at the highest level of engagement and growth in revenues the recent years. RS3 grew at twice the pace of the whole video game industry and almost 40 times that of OSRS. There is only one Runescape that some players called RS3. Your opinions don't speak the fact. Opinions from Runescape players' in game engagement and wallets speak the truth.

"You aren't -wrong- about new players being attracted to sound, well-performing games, except for the fact that it shouldn't be holding -current- players hostage by not fixing things they when they can in the meantime."


Didn't I need to tell you again, POH was broken before 2011. Now RS3 has fixed it with all kinds of Player Owned Content in their right places. What we don't "fix" is garbage. Outdated content doesn't need any changes. Otherwise, why didn't Mod Ash fix all kinds of useless, outdated garbage in POH? And why should RS3 fix it when OSRS doesn't?

"Jagex can do it for PVMers and Completionists. Why not everyone else?"


Completionists = everyone. Completion in RS3 doesn't mean only maxed skills but a lot of other things including minigames, achievements, PvM etc etc etc.

22-Feb-2023 15:54:25

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Useless?

If you're talking about things like the Games room, where you would eschew "EfficiencyScape" altogether just to play a bit of 'Hangman' with your friends or whoever is visiting your home - those things are -not- useless, especially in Old School where it is far more likely players are going to be in the house to begin with.

> If the content exists solely for the purpose of having fun, it's -not- useless.

If you're talking about things like the Dining Room, Throne Room, or Parlor, where the main feature is decor and seating, it's not useless because those rooms are intended for social gathering, which, again, is more likely to happen in Old School. The Dungeon provides a combination of the previous two purposes (Fun - PvP, PvE challenges you can do, Showing off for your friends your dungeon-building skills.) Old School also uses Mahogany Tables as its best Construction xp/hour....

> If the content exists around the idea of social gameplay, it's -not- useless.

The Kitchen? Not only stores free stocks of easy to access food and cooking equipment, but also provides stat boosts through the beer barrel and serves as the early game construction hotspot for the best xp (the Larder)

> Quest Hall/Skill Hall

Those show off the player's in game achievements, store all the various books they have found throughout said adventures, and even has useful teleports with the Amulet of Glory. Old School has an Achievement Hall that expands upon this by mounting skillcapes and mounts Xeric's Talisman and Digsite Pendents. We're approaching clearly not useless territory here.

What's left is the portal room and nexus, the chapel, Superior Gardens that restore your stats and teleport network access (Fairy, Spirit Tree, Wilderness Obilisk) - which, either don't exist in RuneScape 3 or are distinctly, profoundly so, more useless in RS3 than they are in Old School.

Are you just trying to lie to my face at this point?
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
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22-Feb-2023 17:49:29

H 1 L D A
Apr Member 2020

H 1 L D A

Posts: 1,666 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Forgot the Workshop, which is needed for some quests and allows you to repair degradeable armor well before you have the invention level required to use a Whetstone for cheaper than using an NPC (meaning this thing even has use for RS3!)

And the Costume Room, which in RS3 -HAS- to be built in order for you to get that coveted costume room-from-the-bank feature you've been on about. Not useless.

...and the Aquarium, which is the only reason YOU use your house!

What was broken about the POH? I'm gonna need convincing.
Quest Cape Owner since 2021

Maxed
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22-Feb-2023 17:52:40 - Last edited on 22-Feb-2023 17:54:48 by H 1 L D A

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